"content":"\nSTUDIES IN TACTICAL MEDIA #3\n\n>From Mail Art to Net.art: Ray Johnson and the Lives of the Saints.\n\nMcKenzie Wark <mw35 {AT} nyu.edu>\n\nA review of:\nHow to Draw a Bunny, directed by John Walter, Film Forum, 209 W Houston st.\nhttp://www.filmforum.com\nRay Johnson: How To Draw a Bunny, Feigen Contemporary, 535 W 20th st. New \nYork.\nhttp://www.artnet.com/feigen.html\n\n\n\"Twenty-eight dollars a month -- including utilities.\"Thiswasthelinein\nJohnWalker's film about the artist Ray Johnson that makes a New York \naudience release a collective sigh. That it used to be cheaper to live in \nthe city everyone assumes -- but *that* cheap? It'sthemomentwhenyou\nrealizethattheNewYorkartworldofthe50sand60swasadifferent\nplanet.\n\nRayJohnsonisthekindofartistwhocouldonlycomefromsuchaworld.\nSomeconsiderhimthefounderofMailArt,whichinturnmightstandasa\nsignificantbutundervaluedprecursortoNet.art.Butheismuchmorethan\nthat.\n\nHowToDrawaBunnydocumentsJohnson's trajectory from Detroit to the Black \nMountain school to the Lower East Side using an amazing array of photographs \n-- somehow people intuited that he was someone whose life just had to be \ndocumented. There'sevenfootagefromatimewhenavideographerfollowed\nhimaround.(Mercifully,we're shown very little of this, as video does a \npoor job of presenting anyone'slegend).\n\nJohnsonisoneofthoseartistsforwhomthereisnodivisionbetweenart\nandlife.Theworkthatendsupintheframeisadocumentofaprocessthan\nanartifact.Itisnotthecompletionofthecreativeprocessbutmerelyits\nmedium,itsmeans;artasaverb,notathing.Thechallengeforanartist\nlikeJohnsonistoliveaesthetically.Cheap-rentNewYorkofthe60s,with\nitsremarkableconcentrationofspaceswithinwhichtoexploresucha\npossibilityandpeoplewiththewitandsensibilitytoseeitwhenit\nmanifests,isoneofthefewplacesthiswaseverreallypossible.Inthe\nwakeofthehyper-commodifiedartworldofthepresent,HowtoDrawaBunny\nlookslikesomethingfromtheLivesoftheSaints--anexemplarylifefrom\nanothertime.\n\nMakenomistake--Idon't mean to propose Johnson as a secular equivalent \nof a saint for ironic purposes. There seems to me a real need to identify \nwhat might occupy the place of sainthood, in a world in which even art is \ncompletely dominated by the commodity. By saying there is something saintly \nabout Johnson I do not mean he was a moral goody-goody, the kind of vapid \ngreeting card veneration that has overtaken all kinds of veneration of the \nexceptional, whether saintly or secular. Rather, the artist as saint is \nsomeone who manages to reveal the venality of this world through her or his \nmethod of interacting with it, and in so doing, point toward the possibility \nof living otherwise.\n\nA remarkable range of New York art world luminaries are assembled in this \nfilm to comment on Johnson, and none really have anything much to say about \nhim. The police officer who discovered his body comes much closer to him \nthan any of the commentators who knew Johnson when he was alive. He was, as \na saint should be, opaque to mere psychologizing. He works a different \nplane. Johnson'sinnermotivationsbecomeuninteresting,invisible.Itis\nwhathisactionsshowofwhattheworldisorcouldbecomethatmatter.\n\nThetalkingheadswhopopulatethefilmarecalleduponaswitnesses.They\ntellstoriesaboutJohnsonwhichvalidatehisotherness.Insomestories,we\nhearofJohnson's ability to aestheticize any and every moment. There is no \nprivileged space where art resides. There'saDadastraintoJohnson's\nantics,butatsomepointtheyceasebeingactsofnegation,aimedagainst\nsomeinstitutionormoral.Theybecomepureaffirmativeactsthatopenup\nthepossibilitiesforaestheticwonderorjoyfromwithineverydaylived\ntime.\n\nSomestoriesareaboutthecommodityaspectoftheart-work.W
"content":"\n\n\nI also remember a story about Ray Johnson: a journalist kept asking him\nfor an interview and a visit at his studio at 44 West 7 Street Locust\nValley. After ten years he was admitted in the house. The art critic was\nvery surprised to see that there was nothing but a bed in the whole house.\nIt took some other years for the journalist to understand that Ray Johnson\nemptied his house intentionally on that day when his visit was expected.\nRetrospectively, i understand that this behaviour might have been Ray\nJohnson's way to avoid to have his art called \"tactical\", \"camp\", \"no\npositive doctrine at work\", \"quotidian politics at work\", \"craft, not\ngrand design\".\n\ngreetings,\nanna balint\n\n>\n10/11/02 9:21:12 PM, \"McKenzie Wark\" <mckenziewark {AT} hotmail.com> wrote:\n\n>STUDIES IN TACTICAL MEDIA #3\n>\n>>From Mail Art to Net.art: Ray Johnson and the Lives of the Saints.\n>\n>McKenzie Wark <mw35 {AT} nyu.edu>\n>\n>A review of:\n>How to Draw a Bunny, directed by John Walter, Film Forum, 209 W Houston st.\n>http://www.filmforum.com\n>Ray Johnson: How To Draw a Bunny, Feigen Contemporary, 535 W 20th st. New \n>York.\n>http://www.artnet.com/feigen.html\n>\n>\n\n\n\n\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\n\n[from] Tactical Media and Tactical Knowledge\nMcKenzie Wark\n\n\nGeert Lovink and David Garcia speak of a tactical media that\nmight free itself from the dialectic of being an alternative or\nan opposition, which merely reproduces the sterile sense of a\nWedom versus a Theydom in the media sphere. They claim\nthat the \"identity politics, media critiques and theories of\nrepresentation\" that were the foundation of oppositional\nmedia practices \"are themselves in crisis.\" They propose\ninstead an \"existential aesthetic\" based on the temporary\n\"creation of spaces, channels and platforms\". Lovink and\nGarcia's seminal text on tactical media doesn't entirely succeed\nin extracting itself from the oppositional language of Wedom\nversus Theydom, but it points towards an alterative strategy\nto the negation that paradoxically unites Osama Bin Laden,\nGeorge W Bush and the writers of The Nation as purveyors,\nnot of the same world view, but of world views constructed\nthe same way. It is a question of combining tactical media\nwith a tactical knowledge, of using the extensive vector of\nthe media in combination with the intensive vector of the\nscholarly archive.\n\nIn a nominally democratic country, one acts as part of a public\nsphere in the sense Alexander Kluge give to the term. A\npublic sphere a matrix of accessible vectors acts as a\npoint of exchange between private experience and public life;\nbetween intimate, incommunicable experience and collective\nperception. Public networks are arenas where the struggle to\ncommunicate takes place. Two aspects of this concept are\nrelevant here. For Kluge, writing in post war Germany, the\nproblem revolves around the historic failure in 1933 of the\npublic sphere to prevent the rise of fascism. \"Since 1933 we\nhave been waging a war that has not stopped. It is always\nthe same theme the noncorrelation of intimacy and public\nlife and the same question: how can I communicate strong\nemotions to build a common life?\"ForKluge,thepublic\nsphereisafundamentallyproblematicdomain,caught\nbetweenthecomplexitiesofthesocialandtheincreasing\nseparationofprivatelife.\n\nOnehastoask:forwhomdoesKlugeimaginehespeaks?\nPerhapsthereareotherexperiencesoftherelationbetween\nthetimeofintimateexperienceandthetimeofthepublic\nsphere,buriedoutthereinpopularculture.Perhapsitisonly\nintellectualswhofeelsoestrangedfromthetimeof\ninformationintheeraoftelesthesia.Afterall,themodeof\naddressadoptedbymostpopularmediadoesn't speak to a\nhighly cultured intellectual like Kluge or even a provincial\none like me. We were trained in slower ways of handling\ninformation, and have a repertoire of quite different stories\nwith which to filter present events. How could we claim to\nknow what goes on out there in the other interzones, in quite\nother spaces where different flows from different vectors\nmeet quite other memories and experiences of everyday life?\nAfter all, we intellectuals keep finding more than enough\ndifferences amongst ourselves.\n\nA tactical knowledge of media may have among its merits the\nfact that it takes these other interzones seriously. It tries to\ntheorize the frictions between Kluge'sintimateexperienceand\nthenetworkofvectors,oritactuallytriestocollectand\ninterpretaccountsofsuchexperiences.Itisnecessarytoat\nleastattempttomaintainaself-criticalrelationtothecodes\nandpracticesoftheinterzonespecifictointellectualmedia\nexperiences.Afterall,'our'training,'our'prejudicesin\nrelationtothevectormightbepartoftheproblem.Nothing\nexempts'our'institutionsandinterestsfromthewarofthe\nvector,thestruggletocontrolthetrajectoriesofinformation.\n\nWiththespreadofthevectorintotheprivaterealm,a\nwindowopensthatmightbeusedtocreatealinealong\nwhichthecommunicationofintimateexperienceandcollective\nfeelingmighttakeplace,inthoseeventfulmomentswhen\nthe
"content":"\nJoanne:\n\nReading your text on tactical media reminds me of the experience of seeing\na group of Ljubljana skinheads aggressively singing the words to the\nSlovenian national anthem the other day. One would think that the effect\nwould be nationalistic, which is what they intended, but the lyrics kept\non tripping them up -- only they themselves didn't know it. (The words\ncall for equality and peace among nations) So in the skinhead's case,\nthere was a kind of inadvertent monkeywrenching or Adbuster-style action,\nbut one where the subversion which crept into the mix was there to begin\nwith: it was only the context of the racist nationalists singing it that\ngave it a nice reversal only apparent to an outside observer. And so what\nwas meant to be menacing was actually funny, its racist/nationalist\ndelivery subverted not by its subtext but by its text. It was the song\nthat detourned the singers.\n\nIn your case, what was meant to read as incisive analysis, couched in a\nhard-edged, dispassionate variant of the academese everyone's familiar\nwith, is a kind of fog concealing exactly what you inaccurately accuse\nGodard of: it has \"nothing to say\" -- beyond its citations. If there's any\nkind of revelation in this post it's in your uneasy fascination with\nGodard's film about the Palestinian cause. (Right -- the same one I got to\nrefamiliarize myself with because you lent me a tape of it when you were\nin Ljubljana. For the record.) \"Here & Elsewhere\" doesn't have nothing to\nsay -- rather it's the only film document I know of that accurately\nconveys the complexity of the Palestinian/Israeli disaster, for which\nthere are exactly no easy answers, and maybe no answers at all. But when I\naccuse you of having nothing to say it's also not quite right, because\nthere's something fascinating about the coexistence of your ambivalent\nobservations about his film with your other observations, all of which\nlead to a conclusion in which fellow travelers are advised to drop the\nmetaphors of warfare, something (we're told) that's not a cop-out but\ninstead shows \"the vigilance of continuing to think, beyond the\nobvious...\" Are we beyond the obvious here? Didn't \"Here & Elsewhere\"\nalready signpost an alternative to what you call the apocalyptic vs.\nutopian \"sense\" of the media, 30 years ago? Isn't that, more than\napproximately, the very voice of Godard's film I detect, rising like a\nstale but at least believable truth in your conclusion? I detect \"nothing\nto say\" in your post beyond what you inherited from those you'd accuse of\nthe same.\n\nRegards, MB\n\n\n\n\n\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\nMichael-\n\nClearly you profess to have an intimate understanding of JoAnne's motives,\nconclusions. But, IMO, you only provide me with more evidence that the\ninherently paranoid only see the ulterior motive. If your not paranoid\nthen you are under the delusion that your previous interactions with her\nhave given you the insight to critique her for now, and forever. All I\ncan do is applaud her. I hope she ignores you, Michael. She is the\nauthor ... you are nothing but a critic. She took her time to deliver a\ndispassionate and eloquent arguement (with proper citations) that was very\nenlighening (especailly for those of us who think the anti-globalisation\nfolks are full of shit and just looking for a fight). And you, as a\nsimpleton, rebuff her out-of-hand. You think you're so clever with your\ninsider information ... but you're not ... you either missed (or ignored)\nthe big picture.\n\nAs a very liberal democrat, I keep waiting for the anti-globalisation\nfreaks to offer an alternative to the status quo ... but you never do. \nIf they ever offered the first first idea on how to \"better\" govern then I\nwould be their greatest champion ... but all I ever see is criticizism.\n\nIt may not mean much ...but I would like to thank JoAnne. The perspective\nshe presented may have been \"obvious\" to Michael but it was new to me.\n\ndavid goldschmidt\n\n\n\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\n> As a very liberal democrat, I keep waiting for the anti-globalisation\n> freaks to offer an alternative to the status quo ... but you never do. \n> If they ever offered the first first idea on how to \"better\" govern then I\n> would be their greatest champion ... but all I ever see is criticizism.\n\nNorman Mailer in 1962 interview:\n\n\nThere's something pompous about people who join peace movements, SANE,\nand so forth. They're the radical equivalent to working for the FBI. You\nsee, nobody can criticize you. You're doing God's work, you're clean.\nHow can anyone object to anybody who works for SANE or is for banning\nthe bomb?\n\n- You're not questioning their motives, are you?\n\nI am questioning their motives. I think there's something doubtful about\nthese people. I don't trust them. I think they're totalitarian in\nspirit. Now, of course I'm certainly not saying they're Communist, and\nthey most obviously are not Fascists, but there are new kinds of\ntotalitarians. A most numerous number since World War II.\n\n\n=====\nend\n(of original message)\n\nY-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:\n\n__________________________________________________\nDo You Yahoo!?\nSign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free\nhttp://sbc.yahoo.com\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\n> would be their greatest champion ... but all I ever see is criticizism.\n\nNature is life's greatist critic. Yet through nothing more than its\nrelentless takedowns it has created man.\n\n--\n Julian Assange |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people\n |together to collect wood or assign them tasks and\n proff {AT} iq.org |work, but rather teach them to long for the endless\n proff {AT} gnu.ai.mit.edu |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\nDear Michael,\n\nWow, it's not every day I get compared to a Slovenian skinhead\naggressively singing a dispassionate anthem. I find it hard to reply since\nyou're right: I have nothing to say, offer no original ideas or\nconclusions about what is to be done, and only cite a few names and ask a\nfew questions - about some things I think are often passed over in\nsilence.\n\n> Are we beyond the obvious here? Didn't \"Here & Elsewhere\"\n> already signpost an alternative to what you call the apocalyptic vs.\n> utopian \"sense\" of the media, 30 years ago?\n\nWell, yes, that was the reason I used the example. Your reply seems based\non a misunderstanding that I'm \"accusing\" Godard of having nothing to say.\nWhen I said that Godard became embarrassed about his past and started\nmaking films that had \"nothing to say\" I was at least ironic, and at best\nserious. Apologies for not being obvious and straightforward enough, and\nat the same time too academic. The contrast was between having something\nto say -- in the sense of making absolutely declarative statements like the\none's we're familiar with from the history of manifestoes - and telling a\nhistory by way of asking questions. So I am neither ambivalent nor\nuneasily fascinated by H&E, and I would agree with you that the film is\none of the better examples of conveying the complexity of the\nPalestinian/Israeli disaster, maybe because it asks a lot of naďve\nquestions, presents contradictory perspectives on the event, and instead\nof offering easy answers, leaves it up to others to draw inferences and\nconclusions. The contrast was also meant to suggest that it is maybe too\neasy to criticize something like the 'anti-globalization' movement for\nbeing merely negative and lacking any positive demands. It's not just a\nquestion of having something to say, but how you say it, how convinced you\nare of the correctness of your theory, who participates in it, how open it\nis to criticism and recognizing its contradictions, and probably a lot of\nother things which can't be listed in advance.\n\nCiao,\nJoanne\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\nOn Friday 05 July 2002 10:13 pm, Morlock Elloi wrote:\n> [someone else] wrote:\n> > As a very liberal democrat, I keep waiting for the anti-globalisation\n> > freaks to offer an alternative to the status quo ... but you never do.\n> > If they ever offered the first first idea on how to \"better\" govern then\n> > I would be their greatest champion ... but all I ever see is criticizism.\n\nMichael Albert, editor of ZNet (http://www.znet.org), has what I think is a\nvery sensible proposal called `Participatory Economics', about how regional\neconomies could be run on the basis of participatory democracy. He's written\ntwo or three books about it:\n\nhttp://www.parecon.org\n\nBen\n\n\n\n________________________________________________________________________\nThis email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan\nservice. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working\naround the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com\n________________________________________________________________________\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\n\nTable of Contents:\n\n RE: Re: <nettime> the language of tactical media \n \"Derek Baker\" <derek {AT} perfectfit.net> \n\n Re: Fwd: Re: <nettime> the language of tactical media \n \"N Jett\" <njett {AT} hotmail.com> \n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nDate: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:07:10 -0700\nFrom: \"Derek Baker\" <derek {AT} perfectfit.net>\nSubject: RE: Re: <nettime> the language of tactical media\n\nAlso Read: When Corporations Rule the World by David Korten. The entire\nsecond half of the book is dedicated to resolving 'the problem'.\n\n- -----Original Message-----\nFrom: nettime-l-request {AT} bbs.thing.net\n[mailto:nettime-l-request {AT} bbs.thing.net]On Behalf Of Benjamin Geer\nSent: Monday, July 08, 2002 2:02 AM\nTo: nettime-l {AT} bbs.thing.net\nSubject: Fwd: Re: <nettime> the language of tactical media\n\n\nOn Friday 05 July 2002 10:13 pm, Morlock Elloi wrote:\n> [someone else] wrote:\n> > As a very liberal democrat, I keep waiting for the anti-globalisation\n> > freaks to offer an alternative to the status quo ... but you never do.\n> > If they ever offered the first first idea on how to \"better\" govern then\n> > I would be their greatest champion ... but all I ever see is\ncriticizism.\n\nMichael Albert, editor of ZNet (http://www.znet.org), has what I think is\na very sensible proposal called `Participatory Economics', about how\nregional economies could be run on the basis of participatory democracy. \nHe's written two or three books about it:\n\nhttp://www.parecon.org\n\nBen\n\n\n________________________________________________________________________\nThis email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan\nservice. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working\naround the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com\n________________________________________________________________________\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nDate: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 20:19:18 +0000\nFrom: \"N Jett\" <njett {AT} hotmail.com>\nSubject: Re: Fwd: Re: <nettime> the language of tactical media\n\n\nAh yes... Parecon... no longer shall we have surgeons and janitors,\ninstead there is just the person who takes out your trash, and your\nappendix (and gets paid more for the trash because surgery is\n\"glamorous\"). His \"Balanced Job Complex\" idea seems like a very unfunny\njoke to me. The whole \"committees to decide absolutely everything\" concept\nis kind of a joke too, but no need to get into that here...\n\nThe Parecon project may be an \"alternative\", but it certainly seems\nunfeasible and unattractive and extremely unlikely to go anywhere beyond\nthe minds of the radical intellectual elite. Hopefully he isn't on this\nlist too, the guy gets rather feisty when challenged.\n\n\n\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\n\nDavid Goldschmidt said:\n\n> As a very liberal democrat, I keep waiting for the anti-globalisation\n> freaks to offer an alternative to the status quo ... but you never do.\n> If they ever offered the first idea on how to \"better\" govern then I\n> would be their greatest champion ... but all I ever see is\ncriticizism.\n\n\nThis is simply not true and I can only suppose that you don't read much.\n\n\nThere are so many concrete proposals for change it would be well nigh\nimpossible to catalogue here. I would mention only a few to refute your\nassertions:\n\n--Joseph Stiglitz (who has been mentioned on this list numerous times)\nis a the former chief economist of the World Bank and in his recent book\nhe provides a highly specific critique of how the World Bank and the IMF\ndamages the economies of less-developed nations, primarily because it is\nbeholden to a pro-globalized-business agenda. He offers numerous\nsuggestions for reform of the IMF and the World Bank.\n\n--I am involved in creating an independent organization that will\nspecifically provide certification of standards at garment factories in\nthe developing world. It is to be funded by retailers and manufacturers,\nbut remain independent and arms length.\n\nBTW, It was the idea of a bunch of anti-globalization freaks including\nmyself, working with business leaders to create a workable solution to a\nproblem that all sides in the debate generally acknowledge is real.\n\nLastly, I would say that awareness is the most important element of real\nchange. I certainly believe that most of today's misdirection is the\ndirect result of ignorance. In a media saturated world, we remain\nuninformed; in a world supposedly governed by reason, we question\nsurprisingly little; in our so-called democracies there is little\ndebate, remarkably little public participation and little choice.\n\nIf people simply paid more attention things would change.\n\nAnd if that doesn't work then lets blow things up!!\n\n\nObey little, resist much (Walt Whitman)\n_____ \n\nW. Richard Reynolds de La Rochelle\njournalist / author / polemicist \n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\nOn Tuesday 09 July 2002 1:53 am, \"N Jett\" wrote:\n> Ah yes... Parecon... no longer shall we have surgeons and janitors,\n> instead there is just the person who takes out your trash, and your\n> appendix (and gets paid more for the trash because surgery is\n> \"glamorous\").\n\nThis is a misreading of parecon. You wouldn't get paid more for the trash, \nand glamour isn't a consideration.\n\n> His \"Balanced Job Complex\" idea seems like a very unfunny\n> joke to me.\n\nScorn, on its own, is a very weak argument against anything. If you want to \nargue convincingly against balanced job complexes, you'll have to do better \nthan that.\n\n> The whole \"committees to decide absolutely everything\"\n> concept\n\nThis is a gross misrepresentation of parecon.\n\nIf you have objections to parecon, and you are really interested in thinking \nthrough the issues involved, I suggest that you try reading Albert's and \nHahnel's replies to their critics on www.parecon.org; it may well be that \nyour objections are answered there.\n\nBen\n\n\n________________________________________________________________________\nThis email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan\nservice. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working\naround the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com\n________________________________________________________________________\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\n\n>On Tuesday 09 July 2002 1:53 am, \"N Jett\" wrote:\n> > Ah yes... Parecon... no longer shall we have surgeons and janitors,\n> > instead there is just the person who takes out your trash, and your\n> > appendix (and gets paid more for the trash because surgery is\n> > \"glamorous\").\n>\n>This is a misreading of parecon. You wouldn't get paid more for the trash,\n>and glamour isn't a consideration.\n\nIf it is then it is a misreading that Albert encourages. When I saw him\nspeak he specifically said that the glamour of a job is a consideration in\nwho gets assigned what tasks as part of their job complex. It is a factor\nin the balancing so that glamorous jobs are \"fairly\" distributed. Perhaps\nI and everyone I spoke with afterwards completely misunderstood him, but\nit seemed pretty clear at the time.\n\n>\n> > His \"Balanced Job Complex\" idea seems like a very unfunny\n> > joke to me.\n>\n>Scorn, on its own, is a very weak argument against anything. If you want \n>to\n>argue convincingly against balanced job complexes, you'll have to do better\n>than that.\n\nThis was meant in the context of the rest of my statements (i.e. the\ncomments regarding janitors and surgeons). It is a good point though, I\nhaven't provided a strong argument against, but then I haven't seen a\nstrong argument for (and I do admit I haven't looked very hard, I've only\nread one of Albert's books). Additionally, I've tended to be somewhat\nscornful of Parecon after seeing what a pompous ass Albert is, I know,\ndon't judge the message by the messenger, but the guy came across as such\nan elitest jerk it's hard to dismiss.\n\n>\n> > The whole \"committees to decide absolutely everything\"\n> > concept\n>\n>This is a gross misrepresentation of parecon.\n\nAgain, Albert specifically said this in public that the authority to make\nall economic decisions is vested in the Soviet... err... committees.\n\n\n>\n>If you have objections to parecon, and you are really interested in \n>thinking\n>through the issues involved, I suggest that you try reading Albert's and\n>Hahnel's replies to their critics on www.parecon.org; it may well be that\n>your objections are answered there.\n>\n>Ben\n>\n\nThanks, I will definitely do that sometime in the near future.\n\n\n\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\nOn Tuesday 09 July 2002 8:14 pm, N Jett wrote:\n> >On Tuesday 09 July 2002 1:53 am, \"N Jett\" wrote:\n> > This is a misreading of parecon. You wouldn't get paid more for the\n> > trash, and glamour isn't a consideration.\n>\n> If it is then it is a misreading that Albert encourages. When I saw him\n> speak he specifically said that the glamour of a job is a consideration in\n> who gets assigned what tasks as part of their job complex. It is a factor\n> in the balancing so that glamorous jobs are \"fairly\" distributed. Perhaps\n> I and everyone I spoke with afterwards completely misunderstood him, but\n> it seemed pretty clear at the time.\n\nThe way it's explained in his book _Moving Forward_ is that certain jobs are \ninherently more interesting and empowering than others. This is no doubt why \nthey're more glamorous. The particular problem parecon is trying to solve, \nthrough balanced job complexes, is that workplaces cannot be democratic if \nsome people are numbed and exhausted by jobs that never exercise their \nintellectual faculties, and others spend all their time having interesting \nproblem-solving discussions. Therefore everyone should do a fair share of \nnon-empowering tasks as well as the empowering ones.\n\nAbout getting paid more for doing certain things: the idea (at least in \n_Moving Forward_) is that remuneration should be partly dependent on effort \nand sacrifice. Everyone who works would, by default, receive the same \nremuneration for their labour, but people who wanted to make an extra effort \nor sacrifice could get somewhat more. This is a very different consideration \nfrom glamour.\n\n> > > The whole \"committees to decide absolutely everything\"\n> > > concept\n> >\n> >This is a gross misrepresentation of parecon.\n>\n> Again, Albert specifically said this in public that the authority to make\n> all economic decisions is vested in the Soviet... err... committees.\n\n\"All economic decisions\" doesn't mean the same thing as \"absolutely \neverything\".\n\nBen\n\n\n________________________________________________________________________\nThis email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan\nservice. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working\naround the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com\n________________________________________________________________________\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\n\nA Virtual World is Possible: From Tactical Media to Digital Multitudes\nBy Geert Lovink and Florian Schneider\n\nI.\n\nWe start with the current strategy debates of the so-called\n\"anti-globalisation movement\",thebiggestemergingpoliticalforcefor\ndecades.InPartIIwewilllookintostrategiesofcriticalnewmedia\ncultureinthepost-speculativephaseafterdotcommania.Fourphasesof\ntheglobalmovementarebecomingvisible,allofwhichhavedistinct\npolitical,artisticandaestheticqualities.\n\n1.The90sandtacticalmediaactivism\n\nTheterm'tactical media'aroseintheaftermathofthefalloftheBerlin\nWallasarenaissanceofmediaactivism,blendingoldschoolpolitical\nworkandartists' engagement with new technologies. The early nineties saw\na growing awareness of gender issues, exponential growth of media\nindustries and the increasing availability of cheap do-it-yourself\nequipment creating a new sense of self-awareness amongst activists,\nprogrammers, theorists, curators and artists. Media were no longer seen as\nmerely tools for the Struggle, but experienced as virtual environments\nwhose parameters were permanently 'underconstruction'. This was the\ngolden age of tactical media, open to issues of aesthetics and\nexperimentation with alternative forms of story telling. However, these\nliberating techno practices did not immediately translate into visible\nsocial movements. Rather, they symbolized the celebration of media\nfreedom, in itself a great political goal. The media used - from video,\nCD-ROM, cassettes, zines and flyers to music styles such as rap and techno\n- varied widely, as did the content. A commonly shared feeling was that\npolitically motivated activities, be they art or research or advocacy\nwork, were no longer part of a politically correct ghetto and could\nintervene in 'popculture' without necessarily having to compromise with\nthe 'system.' With everything up for negotiation, new coalitions could be\nformed. The current movements worldwide cannot be understood outside of\nthe diverse and often very personal for digital freedom of expression.\n\n2. 99-01: The period of big mobilizations\n\nBy the end of the nineties the post-modern 'timewithoutmovements' had\ncome to pass. The organized discontent against neo-liberalism, global\nwarming policies, labour exploitation and numerous other issues converged.\nEquipped with networks and arguments, backed up by decades of research, a\nhybrid movement - wrongly labelled by mainstream media as\n'anti-globalisation' - gained momentum. One of the particular features of\nthis movement lies in its apparent inability and unwillingness to answer\nthe question that is typical of any kind of movement on the rise or any\ngeneration on the move: what'stobedone?Therewasandthereisno\nanswer,noalternative-eitherstrategicortactical-totheexisting\nworldorder,tothedominantmodeofglobalisation.\n\nAndmaybethisisthemostimportantandliberatingconclusion:thereis\nnowaybacktothetwentiethcentury,theprotectivenationstateandthe\ngruesometragediesofthe'left.'Ithasbeengoodtoremember-but\nequallygoodtothrowoff-thepast.Thequestion'what'stobedone'\nshould not be read as an attempt to re-introduce some form of Leninist\nprinciples. The issues of strategy, organization and democracy belong to\nall times. We neither want to bring back old policies through the\nbackdoor, nor do we think that this urgent question can be dismissed by\ninvoking crimes committed under the banner of Lenin, however justified\nsuch arguments are. When Slavoj Zizek looks in the mirror he may see\nFather Lenin, but that'snotthecaseforeveryone.Itispossibletowake\nupfromthenightmareofthepasthistoryofcommunismand(still)pose\nthequestion:what's to be done? Can a 'multitude'ofinterestsand\nbackgroundsaskthatquestion,oristheonlyagendathatdefinedbythe\nsummitcalendarofworldleadersandthebusinesselite?\n\nNevertheless,themovementhasb
"content":"\nA possible world is virtual.\nabsolutely.\n_This_world_is_always_fucking_impossible.\n\n... There's something lovely about it _ that i just can't quite place my \nfinger on. ..\nspeak thus - and rub your finger a'll' over.\nthat is,, compelexity.\nand it won't help (much) to recognize and declare it as such (don't even \n_try to understand).\n\nthough the question may be: this? world?\nok, it should be clear that a _this_world_ (in _this_ (absolute \n(non-multiple)) sense) does not exist.\nSo we already have one reason why? a possible world is so utterly virtual.\n\nthis is of course a question of reality and reality multiplicity and \nproduction, which presents itself asa painful and fascinating issue to a \nmedia-activist. what is often overlooked, though, is that reality != media.\nThe term \"world' even more so. I certainly do not want to criticize those \nwho analyse and fight the evil corporate media in its malicious influence \non mass realization ,but as important as this is, reality is about more \nthan just media. media in the narrow space of communication connects \ninformation and material, virtuality and actuality. reality is nothing else \nbut a borderline, discerning in&out, real&irreal. maybe we should get past \nthe point of pushing around this borderline, it's all existence -anyway.\n much rather, i'd propose we reflect upon the everyday, unspoken \nimplications of our \"doing media| because if we realize that information is \nindependent parallel existence, this abstractive \"interface' becomes quite \ninteresting. \"doing media' and 'doing information\" are two different \nthings. now ishould say that we can hardly get around doing information, \nbut media is still a much more alterable mass than we might think.\neventhough it may seem old, i'd like to suggest that we rethink- remake- \nredo. if our media is discontenting, question its foundations - build a new \nnew media -!realy /if our movement seems frustrating, poses: wastun?, why \nnot move something else, somewhere else _and_under_another_name_. that will \n-andis- being done anyway.\n\nwastun?so_\nwhat only may be tried, is both an immediate and metamediate radicalization \nin addition to mediate radicalism.\n\nconcerning bubble&burst:\nnow to me, as potential early representant of the generation following the \ngen. of 89, the whole dotcom thing had a lot to do with adolescence. with \ngrowing pains, puberty and confusion. growing up with people envying you \nfor all the new, new developments you'll witness - and pitying you for not \nbeing able to cash in and grow in power at the beginning of the \"long \nboom\". nowadays, people don't philosophize over the future too much, they \njust tell you to work hard and get a good job. ;-} Maybe this can help with \nthe analysis, seeing it all as the growing up of the 21st century. and \ndon't let them fool you, even though it's already feeling like \nmidlife-crisis, that's all just some youthful morosity.\nThere's more developments around the corner\n the dream of the open technological future is not over yet\n\nkeepitup,\nGabriel.\n-- \nGabriel Pickard\nwhat?\nhuman.\nhttp://werg.demokratica.de\nwerGf314\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\n \"As the situationists concluded, the true fulfillment of art ultimately\nimplies going beyond the boundaries of art, bringing creativity and\nadventure into the critique and liberation of every aspect of life; and\nfirst of all into challenging the submissive conditioning that prevents\npeople from creating their own adventures.\" -- Ken Knabb [1]\n\nNew media art must indeed fulfill and not simply continue to \"demo\" its\nalternative vision of human relations. Geert and Florian are right to ask\n\"what is to be done\" to bring this about. However, the passage I just\nquoted came to mind as I read their analysis, and I'm not sure whether it\nserves them better as a summary or as a rebuke.\n\nFirst of all, I don't see much in their post about \"challenging the\nsubmissive conditioning that prevents people from creating their own\nadventures.\" I see quite the opposite, in fact; namely, an emphasis on the\nuse of new media art as a tool for shaping mass psychology. In their own\nwords, they are looking for a \"solution to how alternative new media models\ncan be raised to the level of mass (pop) culture.\" They say that the most\nimportant lesson that artists and activists might have to learn from the\nfall of the '90s techno-libertarian dotcommania is the \"importance of\nmarketing.\" They speak of a \"virtual world\" as something consisting of\n\"software, interfaces and alternative standards\" that must be \"installed.\"\nAnd they strongly suggest that what's standing in way of such an\n\"installation\" is that the \"new media art\" discourse is now linked in the\npublic mind with a failed, obsolete and financially ruinous business fad\nthat \"no one wants know about [...] anymore.\" So that means only that it's\ntime to rebrand the product, eh?\n\nGeert and Florian propose such a rebranding in two forms. First, they say\nit's imperative that the new media art scene disassociate itself from the\nfailed '90s \"New Economy\" techno-libertarianism by radically critiquing it.\nWell, Geert co-founded nettime seven years ago to do just that. Apparently\nwith little success, if their analysis of the present state of new media art\nis correct.\n\nSecond, they call for the abandonment of radical left theory in favor of a\n\"new ethical-aesthetic paradigm\" that \"lives on in the pragmatic\nconsciousness of affective labour\" consisting of nerdiness, friendship and\npolitical action. This political action, in turn, is motivated by a very\nbroad conception of \"openness\" that makes a connection, by means of\nconsiderable sophistry, between open source and open borders. Geert and\nFlorian say that such a post-ideological, post-solidarity \"digital\nmultitude\" is already a reality brought about by tactical media, and that\n\"what is to be done\" now is to bring this new social form \"down to the level\nof production\" by viewing this \"multitude\" as a producer of \"experimental\nknowledge\" whose \"algorithms\" must be encoded and decoded, all based on the\ncore realization that \"everyone is an expert.\"\n\nBut it's simply not true that \"everyone is an expert\", certainly not in any\ncase at the \"level of production\", and it's in this conception of the\nmultitude where I believe Geert and Florian's argument breaks down. I have\nnever understood how the concept of \"multitude\" that Negri, joined by Geert\nand Florian, distinguishes from the \"masses\" by emphasizing the former's\nlack of a common trait, ideology or indeed any distinguishing idea at all\n[2], differs from the more traditional concept of \"mob\". McKenzie Wark in\nhis response seems to pick up on this problem with Geert and Florian's\nargument, arguing that no \"digital multitude\" will be able to do \"what is to\nbe done\"withoutfirstachievingclassconsciousnessbasedonacommon\nunderstandingofitsrelationtothecurrentlyemergingformsof\nintellectualpropertylaw.WhetherornotMacKenzie'sownrewriteofthe\nCommunistManifestoaroundIPlawisthewayforward,heiscertainlyright\ntoin
"content":"\n\nLovink and Schneider ask the right question in 'A Virtual World is\nPossible'. What is to be done? Unfortunately, they have not done it. Yes,\nthere is a need for a political position outside of the dialectic of the\nstreet and cyberspace. Yes, there is a need for a new position for new\nmedia outside of the dialectic of the media market and the art market. And\nyes, the place to look is in deconstructing the techno-libertarian\nideologies of the 90s. But what is required at this juncture is a tool\nwith which to prise it open to discover how it worked.\n\nHe was wrong about a lot of things, but Marx did enjoin us to ask what he\ncalled \"the property question\", and insisted that it was where the\ncritical spirit begins and ends. And what if we ask the \"property\nquestion\"ofthejumbleofsymptomswithwhichLovink&Schneiderconfront\nus?Thenetworkofpowerstartstorevealitselfmoreclearly.\n\nDidthenewmovementsariseoutofthinair?Ordidtheyariseoutofa\nnewstageinthedevelopmentofthecommodityeconomy?Atboththelevel\nofthetoolsithadatitsdisposal,andtherangeofissuesit\nconfronted,thenewmovementconfrontsanewclasspower.Onlyrarelyis\nthisclasspowernamedandidentifiedatanabstractlevel.Thesymptoms\nofits(mis)rulehavebeenchartedbybraveadvocatesandactvists.Butwe\nareallmerelyblindfolkstouchingdifferentpartsofanelephantand\ntryingtodescribethetotalityfromthedetailwesensebeforeus,inour\nfragmentofeverydaylife.\n\nSolet's ask the property question of all the fragments of resistance that\nappear to us in everyday life. Start in the underdeveloped world. How is\nit possible that the productive engines of commodity society find\nthemselves shipped, by and large, out of the overdeveloped world and into\nthe under- dveloped world? What new power makes it possible to consign the\nmanufacturing level of production to places deprived of technical and\nknowledge infrastructure? A new division of labour makes it possible to\ncut the mere making of things off from all of their other properties. The\nresearch, design and marketing will remain, on the whole, in the over-\ndeveloped world, and will be protected by a new and increasingly global\nregime of property, intellectual property. As for the rest, whole\ncontinents can compete for dubious honour of mere manufacturing.\n\nWhat makes this separation possible is at one and the same time a legal\nand a technical distinction. Information emerges as a separate realm, a\nworld apart as Lovink has perceptively argued for some time. But he has\nnot stopped to inquire is to how or why, and without first asking how or\nwhy we cannot get far with the big question,: what is to be done. So let's\nlookcloselyatthewaythedevelopmentofa*vectoral*technologyhas\nmadepossiblearelativeseparationfromitsmateriality.Whichisnotto\nsaythatinformationisimmaterial.Rather,ithasan*abstract*relation\ntothematerial.Itnolongermatterstoitsintegrityasinformation\nwhetheritisembodiedinthiscd-romorthatflashcardorthatstackof\npaper.\n\nAvirtualworldisindeedpossible,preciselybecauseofthiscominginto\nexistenceofabstractinformation.Butwhatisinformation?Theproductof\nalaborofencodinganddecoding.Justasthecommodityeconomymade\nmanuallaborabstractinthemachineage,sotooithasmadeintellectual\nlaborabstractintheinformationage.\n\nButthevirtualworldfindsitselfconstrainedbyaformofpropertyalien\ntoit.Nolongerconfinetoaparticularmateriality,informationreally\ndoesyearntobefree.Butitisnotfree,itiseverywhereinchains.It\nisforcedintotheconstraintofaverynewcreation--intellectual\nproperty.Ontheruinsofthecommonsthatcopyrightandpatentwereonce\nsupposedtoguarranteearisesanabsoluteprivatisationofinformationas\nproperty.\n\nAndso,withawholenew--virtual--continenttoclaimasitsown,\nclasspowerfindsanewbasis,andremakes
"content":"\n<McKenzie Wark wrote>\n\n>He was wrong about a lot of things, but Marx did enjoin us to ask what he\n>called \"the property question\", and insisted that it was where the\n>critical spirit begins and ends. And what if we ask the \"property\n>question\" of the jumble of symptoms with which Lovink & Schneider confront\n>us? The network of power starts to reveal itself more clearly.\n>\n>Did the new movements arise out of thin air? Or did they arise out of a\n>new stage in the development of the commodity economy? At both the level\n>of the tools it had at its disposal, and the range of issues it\n>confronted, the new movement confronts a new class power. Only rarely is\n>this class power named and identified at an abstract level. The symptoms\n>of its (mis)rule have been charted by brave advocates and actvists. But we\n>are all merely blind folks touching different parts of an elephant and\n>trying to describe the totality from the detail we sense before us, in our\n>fragment of everyday life.\n\n\nI think the class struggle many 'counter-globalisation' protesters \nare engaged in is not so much a new class struggle but an age-old one.\n\nthe bulk of the actions that have taken place against the global \ninstitutions of capitalism in the last 5 or so years have taken place \nin the countries of the global South - Bolivia, South Africa, India, \nMexico - or in countries \"over the horizon\", out of site of CNN - \nSouth Korea etc. There isn't a single day where a protest, blockade, \noccupation, etc takes place against the array of institutions, \ncorporations and governments of the North.\n\nI would say that the overwhelming amount of protesters, activists, \nrevolutionaries, et al around the world are engaged with an old class \nworking through relatively new global mechanisms. The issues they \nhave been confronted with since the beginnings of colonisation and \nthen industrialisation are still very much the same - land, dignity, \nautonomy, freedom\n\nBut the main point I wanted to address is the question \"Did the new \nmovements arise out of thin air? Or did they arise out of a new stage \nin the development of the commodity economy?\". To which the short \nanswer is they arose out of a set of catalytic 'encuentro's' \norganised by the Zapatistas and then by string of international \nactions organised through the Peoples Global Action network=8A\n\n\n[from http://www/agp.prg]\n\n\"The sense of possibility that this uprising gave to millions of \npeople across the globe was extraordinary. In 1996, the Zapatistas, \nwith trepidation as they thought no-one might come, sent out an email \ncalling for a gathering, called an \"encuentro\" (encounter), of \ninternational activists and intellectuals to meet in specially \nconstructed arenas in the Chiapas jungle to discuss commontactics, \nproblems and solutions. Six thousand people attended, and spent days \ntalking and sharing their stories of struggle against the common \nenemy: capitalism.\n\nThis was followed a year later by a gathering in Spain, where the \nidea for the construction of a more action focused network, to be \nnamed Peoples' Global Action (PGA), was hatched by a group made up of \nactivists from ten of the largest and most innovative social \nmovements. They included the Zapatistas, Movimento Sem Terra, (the \nBrazilian Landless Peasants Movement who occupy and live on large \ntracts of unproductive land) and the Karnataka State Farmers Union \n(KRRS), renowned for their \"cremate Monsanto\"campaignwhichinvolved\nburningfieldsofGeneticallyModifiedcrops.\n\nThegroup(whobecamethePGAconvenorscommittee,arolethat\nrotateseveryyear)draftedadocumentoutliningsomeoftheprimary\nobjectivesandorganisationalprinciplesoftheemergingnetwork.It\noutlinedafirmrejectionofappealstothoseinpowerforreformsto\nthepresentworldorder.Asupportfordirectactionasameansof\ncommunitiesreclaimingcontrolovertheirlives,andan\norganisationalphilosophybasedonautonomyand
"content":"\n\n\nn_ik makes the valuable point that class struggle in most\nof the world appears not to be about information, but to be\nabout land. Indeed, the *first*, not the second or the third,\nmoments of commodification is very much in progress. For\nmany people the expropriation of their communal land\nrights is their direct experience of commodification, in\nterms of what it takes from them.\n\nHowever, i think this process is overlaid by two other\nmoments of commodification: indistrialisation, or the\ncommodification of fungible productive resources, but\nalso vectoralisation, or the commodification of\ninformation and its means of abstraction, the vector.\n\nIf one breaks it down thus, one can use this distinction as\nan analytic for thinking about possible alliances, and\npossible conflicts, between the subordinated classes\nin each of the three distinct circuits of commodification.\n\nIt seems to me greatly clarifying to think about a\ncomplex articulation of class struggles, than to posit\na 'multitude' arraigned against 'globalisation', where\nneither of those terms have much historical analytic\nspecificity.\n\nOne can certianly trace a very significant movement that\narises out the Zapatista experience, but it might be a\nbit limiting to restrict one's sense of a counter history to\nthat one strand. Or to ignore how much that movement\nowed to an emergent information environment, both\nin terms of what it contronted and what it was able to\nuse as vector for 'counter-global' (call it what you like)\nformation.\n\nk\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\nTo have multitudes, then, we need a gathering idea for them, which quickly\nbrings us back to the proverbial Catch 22. The first symptom of this\nstalemate conundrum is arguably how it is theorized here. Operatives like\nleft and right, mass and mob, network and empire are passive placeholders\nfor multitudes that are conveniently pushed around into pigeonholes carved\nby persuasive rhetoric, as if they were not already deeply conflicted\n\"multitudes\" themselves. This is of course how one traditionally arrives at\na general idea about the specific, tellingly called theory from its Greek\nroot. The first step toward the stated aims must surely be to cease this\nnonsense and interject on less grandiose terms. As one of the heralded beats\nremarked on leave from the asylum: \"A star is as far as the eye can see and\nas close as my eye is to me.\"\n\n-af\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\n> I always pay particular attention to messages from Kermit Snelson and\n> Brian Holmes because I like where each of them is coming from. I have\n> pursued this sense of an affinity with each of them off the list. So when\n> Brian takes umbrage at Kermit's last post in this thread, I feel compelled\n> to enter the fray.\n\nbeing an heavy full of multitude beer earthling and dealing rather with fold\nkinda deleuzian one at chin & belly for recognizing my buds at the bar i am\npretty amusing by some intellectual folklorik description of some impalpable\nanima who are meeting around here. yes i speak about projective body you\nhave.. cause of course presently you 'see' me..& yes and see i am rather\nattracting and modeling by the apolinian lightning force, then kermit &\nbrian are rather twining in some laurel & hardy brain shape ok ok ! the\nworld is a vast land populated by so diverse knitting dark fiber female &\nmale parishioner. but what about yourz..i would say, dark fiber made panz\nfree ?\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\n\nI always pay particular attention to messages from Kermit Snelson and\nBrian Holmes because I like where each of them is coming from. I have\npursued this sense of an affinity with each of them off the list. So when\nBrian takes umbrage at Kermit's last post in this thread, I feel compelled\nto enter the fray.\n\nMax Weber wrote two great essays called \"Science as a vocation\" and\n\"Politics as a vocation\". He argued that a scientist must privilege\nreason, but good scientists are usually ethusiasts; whereas politicians\nmove people by passion, but their arguments are more persuasive if they\nare reasonable. Despite this overlap, it is hard to be both a scientist\nand a politician at the same time. Weber was chief organiser of German\nsociology, a failed Liberal MP and an adviser to the Kaiser's wartime\ncabinet. He was also a depressive who knew about the psychological\npresures of trying to unify the two sides of his personality.\n\nWhat I like about Kermit's messages is their intellectual clarity. It is\ntrue that there is scholarship in them, but what impresses me is their\nquality of reasoning. It does not seem fair to me to ask him to justify\nthese interventions in terms of a logic of political activism. I know that\nthe politics of Karl Marx and Walter Benjamin are long dead, unrealised.\nBut their contributions to the ongoing human conversation about a better\nworld still inspire us. Do I care about their skills in mobilising people\nto man the barrivcades? Not really. It is the quality of their thinking\nthat is moving.\n\nMaybe that makes me an intellectual more than a political activist. But it\nis clear that the people who matter were motivated by both concerns. I\ncan't imagine that Kermit would be on this list unless he cared about the\npolitical troubles of our day, whether or not he goes out into the streets\nto get people committed to a cause. Equally, having read and studied all\nof Brian's contributions to this list, I find his intellectual and\npolitical visions equally inspiring. He wants things to get better soon,\nbut he has put in some spadework on how to think about that. Maybe there\nis more feeling in his posts than Kermit's. But surely there is room for\nall of us in this game. Why attack a blatant intellectual for saying that\nhe sees some flaws in the arguments of Geert and Florian?\n\nI should add a footnote on Polanyi, since Brian brought him up, not for\nthe first time. This is not just a scholastic intervention. Polanyi, in\nThe Great Transformation (1944), said that land, labour and capital were\nfictitious commodities. A commodity is something produced and sold. But\nnature, humanity and society (money) are not produced and therefore cannot\nbe sold. If they are, something terrible happens to the relationship\nbetween society and nature, as formulated by Aristotle when he said that\nman is a political animal. The self-regulating market, as an utopian idea,\nijnevitably inflicts damage on nature, humanity and society. Particular\nclasses express resistance to that general damage.\n\nWhat this has to do with multitudes and mobs I cant guess. I prefer\nEnglish words of one syllable (expressing the idea of mobility) to Latin\nwords of three syllables (expressing the poetry of an intellectual class).\n\nKeith Hart\n\n\n\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\nOn 11/7/02 5:09, \"Brian Holmes\" <brian.holmes {AT} wanadoo.fr> wrote:\n\n> We \n> intellectual laborers definitely have some scores to settle with\n> finance capital and IP, and those are important struggles, for sure.\n> But let's try and keep our intellectual eyes open for the ways that\n> everyone else is living too.\n\nThe first score is of course how \"we\" are going to get paid for \"our\" work\nas \"intellectuals.\" Our plan of action must be to isolate certain points and\nmake them scarce by attributing them to the select few that pose as useful\nauthorities on worthwhile topics. Let us further form close links where we\nquote each other ad infinitum to create the domino effect where arguments\nfall real nice and everyone included in the chain reaction make perfect\nsense. Oh, and we will of course embrace everything and everyone in our\narguments, so the process should in no way be considered exclusive or\nexclusionary (although some _obvious_ exceptions will me made, based upon\nour consensus). This is not to say that I don't hungrily read or (dis)agree\nwith you, but not so deep down I know that theory is some bullshit corner I\npaint myself into and admire the view.\n\nWhat happened to AIDS activism (re: GB words)? If I may reinterpret some of\nthe sentiments about gay activism put forward by Crimp in Melancholia and\nMoralism; it is not just the case that it died as a result of gay\nneo-conservatives hijacking its agenda and thereby gaining the mainstream\nappeal that eventually defused it. The melancholia part relates to an inward\nmourning of its own potential; the loss of its own future as a culture of\nsexual possibility. Activism, in other words, grew to the point where it\nlost momentum and turned on itself as a melancholic impulse directed toward\nits past. My metaphoric guess is that the AIDS quilt can be seen as a\npivotal moment, where this particular movement reached a critical mass in\nthe west and individuation no longer mobilized but returned to alienation\nand loss. The from-to implications in the subject heading of this thread may\nsignal a similar moment for \"new media.\"\n\nJust listen to what people are saying; the post are infused with melancholy,\nfor what never was and what is taken away. There are reasonings for hope not\nimpulsive calls for action. So GB's invite for documentary and poetry to\nfuse, following the formula for a.g. intervention through formal invention,\nis the proven antidote to such a lethargic moment, and it deserves a little\nmore than an emoticon smirk, despite its predictability. It also asks for\ntheory to examine its boundaries and to think rather than quote. To\nrejuvenate the grassroots, we don't necessarily have to hose the lawn with\nanother dose of Empire. Activism moves from the specific to the general and\ndies.\n\nI know it scares me that some deadbeat drunk [sorry, Mr. Corso] with an\nasylum record can capture more insight in a few stanzas than a whole legion\nof decorated laureates can in a whole library. To overcome such fears is the\nbreach of theory. \"Our\" work as \"intellectuals\" is then done. \"We\" can move\non.\n\n-af \n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"\nHere's some thoughts about various contributions to this thread, \nquite a useful one for me anyway, which David Garcia has now about \ncapped off by contributing Gregg Bordowitz's insightful and even \nrevolutionary reflections on AIDS and globalization. While awaiting \nthe fusion of documentary and poetry :)\n\n1.\nKermit really doesn't like the slogan \"everyone is an expert\":\n\n...no one, not even a genius, becomes an expert without the training, \neducation and discipline necessary for creative and critical thought. \nTraining and education involve the mastery of rules, techniques and \nideas.... it is impossible to found a culture on despair, nihilism \nand a principled rejection of all ideas and debate, even if one \nchooses to call such an approach \"tactical media\", \"radical media \npragmatism\" or even \"art\". [snip]\n\nKermit, sometimes I wonder if you do any political organizing? You \nknow, it might be great if leftists could only associate with people \nwho had a clear sense of self, sharply honed critical faculties, a \ngood background knowledge of all the issues, sound moral reflexes and \na sense of coherency in their actions. Trouble is, these days that \nlist of qualities probably better describes the majority of American \nvoters who just gave Bush a mandate for holy war. \"Negative thinking\" \nis a philosopher's word for the difficult attempt to resist a badly \noriented rationality, a predatory individualism, a malevolent \ndiscipline. But the sources of effective resistance don't just come \nfrom philosophy: they also come from the fringes of alienation and \nanger and despair, from the insights of artistic experience, from the \nsudden enthusiasms of technological change, sometimes from more \nobscure rejections of the status quo. One of the main issues today is \nthat the majority of the \"experts\" never question the holy mantra of \neconomic growth, or the unspoken credo of racist exclusion. Somehow \nthat expertise has to be challenged, it's urgent. What Geert and \nFlorian are doing is not just armchair resistance, they're trying to \ngive fairly large numbers of people a possible way into political \nlife, which is always about debate, even when that debate takes the \nform of a riot or a hacker attack. Did you ever stake your own \nphysical freedom on an issue? Do you think someone who does might \nalso have principles? The main thing right now is not to diss \neveryone off and claim the high ground. I mean, I appreciate your \nscholarship and also that you even take the time to apply it to what \nwe're talking about here. What's dismaying, generally, is that the \nminority concerned about something other than their own greed spend \nhalf their time fighting with the people on their own side. We could \nuse some subtler criticism.\n\n2.\nI really liked Nik's post in this thread, recalling the role that the \nPGA and all the social movements associated with it have played in \nputting a new critique of capitalism seriously on the table. In the \nabsence of that history and that continuing reality there would be no \nsocial forums, just a complicit center left waiting to cave in and \nabandon everything. Without a few principled riots the critique would \nhave remained so \"reasonable\"thatit'd just be contemplative \nnostalgia from a bunch of well-heeled artists, old profs or has-been \ncommunists. If you have problems with armchairs and you'renot\ntotallyhookedoncomputerscreens,checkoutthePGAforachange.\nI've found those meshworks to be the best way for me personally to \nexperience and develop the kind of global cooperativity and \nsolidarity that'sgoingtobeabroadbasisofrealresistance,as\nthedaysgetdarkerandallofthisbullshiteconomiccrisisgoeson\nwreckingpeople'slives.\n\n3.\nIalsolikedthewaythatMacKenziecamebackinhissecondpostand\ntalkedaboutthreemajortypesofresistance,againstthreeformsof\ndomination,overland,themeansofindustrialproduction,and\nabstractorsymbolicprop
"content":"\n\nIn their article In their article Florian Schneider and Geert Lovink declare\nthat \"the new social movements (wrongly labeled anti-globalisation) are in\ndanger of \"getting stuck in self-satisfying protest mode, running the risk\n\"of getting stuck at the level of a global 'demo design,' no longer grounded\nin actual topics and local situations.\" They then ask the key question \"how\nto jump beyond the prototype?\"\n\nThe answer to their question lies above all in specificity. In being able to\ngeneralize effectively (with explanatory power) from the lived experience of\ninvolvement in *specific* campaigns. In December Gregg Bordowitz will be\nmoderating a session in the New York Tactical Media Lab\n<http://n5m4.org/index.shtml?118+120+2450> His text (below) suggests ways of\naddressing a number of the questions raised by Geert and Florian including\nthe function and meaning of art in relationship to politics. I hope this\nlist finds Gregg's text as useful as I did on the recurring art question as\nit takes us beyond the rather fruitless obsessing about the \"electronic arts\nsub-culture\"andthedemiseofthedot.comera.(DavidGarcia)\n\n\nI'm Gregg Bordowitz, AIDS activist, video maker, writer and teacher.\nI will be facilitating the discussion at the December TML on Sunday\nthe 15th. It will focus on HIV/AIDS media activism. Planning for that\nday is coming more into focus. Here are some of the ideas that I have\nbeen thinking about that could come up within the discussion.\n\nI am a long time activist who has made much work, both in video and\nin writing that addresses the organizing problems specific to AIDS\nactivism. Here are some of the presumptions I make going into our\ndiscussion. Be kind, these are rough working notes.\n\n1) The AIDS crisis is still beginning. In the US there is much\nfatigue around the issue of AIDS and a profound misconception that\nthe epidemic is contained. Around the world, in Africa, South\nAmerica, Eastern Europe and Asia, places where the epidemic is out of\ncontrol, there are growing activist movements. A particular hot spot\nto look at now is South Africa. The issues that internationalist AIDS\nactivism currently focuses upon have the potential to explode and\nalter a number of governing discursive and juridical regimes\nconcerning trade, industrial production and post-industrial\nproduction. International AIDS activists are questioning and applying\npressure regarding the production and distribution of generic\npharmaceuticals. This is interesting to us for a number of reasons.\nFirst, I am on the AIDS drug cocktail myself and so the issue is\npotentially central to my survival. Second, the juridical regimes\nthat govern international patent law are the same whether applied to\npharmaceuticals, software or feature films. (The TRIPS agreement\ncovers all this.) All of us have a stake in copyright law --\nacademics, media activists, software designers, people interested in\ndigital tech of all kinds. For media activists, the issue of\naffective labor and the management of the production and distribution\nof affective labor is an area of great concern in theory and practice.\n\n2) You can'tunderstandtheglobalAIDScrisiswithoutaworking\ntheoryofglobalizationandanalyzingtheglobalAIDScrisisisa\nperfectwayforformingatheoryofglobalization.Youcangetto\nalmostanyissuebywayofananalysisofglobalAIDS--poverty,\nborders,modesofproduction,etc.\n\n3)Thinkabout.TherearemillionsofpeoplewithAIDSaroundthe\nworld,ineverycorneroftheplanet.Whatwouldhappenifevery\npersonwithAIDSdemandedimmediatecareandaccesstolifesaving\ndrugs?AttheBarcelonaAIDSconferencethispassedJuly,Nelson\nMandelaencouragedeverypersonwithAIDS,nomatterwheretheyare,\nwhatcircumstancesofpovertytheylive-in,todemandimmediatecare.\nThiswasprofound.Everyoneelsewastalkingaboutscaling-up--\nincreasingthescaleoffundingandinfrastructuretomeetthedire\nneedsofmillions.That'san
"content":"\n<McKenzie Wark wrote>\n\n>He was wrong about a lot of things, but Marx did enjoin us to ask what he\n>called \"the property question\", and insisted that it was where the\n>critical spirit begins and ends. And what if we ask the \"property\n>question\" of the jumble of symptoms with which Lovink & Schneider confront\n>us? The network of power starts to reveal itself more clearly.\n>\n>Did the new movements arise out of thin air? Or did they arise out of a\n>new stage in the development of the commodity economy? At both the level\n>of the tools it had at its disposal, and the range of issues it\n>confronted, the new movement confronts a new class power. Only rarely is\n>this class power named and identified at an abstract level. The symptoms\n>of its (mis)rule have been charted by brave advocates and actvists. But we\n>are all merely blind folks touching different parts of an elephant and\n>trying to describe the totality from the detail we sense before us, in our\n>fragment of everyday life.\n\n\nI think the class struggle many 'counter-globalisation' protesters \nare engaged in is not so much a new class struggle but an age-old one.\n\nthe bulk of the actions that have taken place against the global \ninstitutions of capitalism in the last 5 or so years have taken place \nin the countries of the global South - Bolivia, South Africa, India, \nMexico - or in countries \"over the horizon\", out of site of CNN - \nSouth Korea etc. There isn't a single day where a protest, blockade, \noccupation, etc takes place against the array of institutions, \ncorporations and governments of the North.\n\nI would say that the overwhelming amount of protesters, activists, \nrevolutionaries, et al around the world are engaged with an old class \nworking through relatively new global mechanisms. The issues they \nhave been confronted with since the beginnings of colonisation and \nthen industrialisation are still very much the same - land, dignity, \nautonomy, freedom\n\nBut the main point I wanted to address is the question \"Did the new \nmovements arise out of thin air? Or did they arise out of a new stage \nin the development of the commodity economy?\". To which the short \nanswer is they arose out of a set of catalytic 'encuentro's' \norganised by the Zapatistas and then by string of international \nactions organised through the Peoples Global Action network=8A\n\n\n[from http://www/agp.prg]\n\n\"The sense of possibility that this uprising gave to millions of \npeople across the globe was extraordinary. In 1996, the Zapatistas, \nwith trepidation as they thought no-one might come, sent out an email \ncalling for a gathering, called an \"encuentro\" (encounter), of \ninternational activists and intellectuals to meet in specially \nconstructed arenas in the Chiapas jungle to discuss commontactics, \nproblems and solutions. Six thousand people attended, and spent days \ntalking and sharing their stories of struggle against the common \nenemy: capitalism.\n\nThis was followed a year later by a gathering in Spain, where the \nidea for the construction of a more action focused network, to be \nnamed Peoples' Global Action (PGA), was hatched by a group made up of \nactivists from ten of the largest and most innovative social \nmovements. They included the Zapatistas, Movimento Sem Terra, (the \nBrazilian Landless Peasants Movement who occupy and live on large \ntracts of unproductive land) and the Karnataka State Farmers Union \n(KRRS), renowned for their \"cremate Monsanto\"campaignwhichinvolved\nburningfieldsofGeneticallyModifiedcrops.\n\nThegroup(whobecamethePGAconvenorscommittee,arolethat\nrotateseveryyear)draftedadocumentoutliningsomeoftheprimary\nobjectivesandorganisationalprinciplesoftheemergingnetwork.It\noutlinedafirmrejectionofappealstothoseinpowerforreformsto\nthepresentworldorder.Asupportfordirectactionasameansof\ncommunitiesreclaimingcontrolovertheirlives,andan\norganisationalphilosophybasedonautonomyanddecentr
"content":"Hi Brian,\n\nJackie Dugard did a Cambridge University PhD on informal economy\nand violence in post-apartheid South Africa a few years back. It\nwas specifically about the 'taxi wars' in Johannesburg/Pretoria\nand Cape Town, armed conflict between gangs for control of the\nminibus passenger transport industry. She starts off by tracing\nthe informalisation of violence to the state apparatus in the late\napartheid era. But the efforts of the post-apartheid state to deal\nwith the problem failed because bureaucrats were so much slower and\nmore rigid than gangsters. This is not news, I think.\n\nThe Rand Corporation produced a report not long ago 'Networks and\nNetwars: The Future of Terror, Crime, and Militancy\" that has chapters\nlike 'Transnational Criminal Networks' and 'Gangs, Hooligans, and\nAnarchists - the Vanguard of Netwar in the Streets'.\n\nhttp://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1382/\n\nIts conclusion, as I recall, was that the future lies with flexible\nnetwork organization and the governments and corporations will go down\nunless they find a way for transforming themselves into something like\ntheir opponents. But that has been a persistent twentieth century\ntactic, hasn't it, from British government terrorism in Ireland at the\ntime of Ken Loach's latest movie to the lawlessness openly embraced\nby the Bush regime today and John Perkins' revelations about his\ncareer as an 'economic hitman' for the corporations. So I guess one\nquestion might be whether something new is going on here? Maybe it's\nthe dissemination of news through these media.\n\nKeith\n\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: majordomo {AT} bbs.thing.net and \"info nettime-l\" in the msg body\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime {AT} bbs.thing.net\n\n",
"content":"2006/5/31, Brian Holmes <brian.holmes {AT} wanadoo.fr>:\n> I'd be totally interested to read your dissertation Miguel,\n> is it online?\n>\n\nBrian,\n\nI forgot to say that the thesis is only in Portuguese. If you stil\nwant to read it and understand Portuguese I can send the PDF to you.\nI might translate some of the most interesting chapters into English\nlater, though.\n\n> > I think it would be good to start a debate here in My feeling is\n> that cooptation is an infinite process - part of social struggle,\n> which demands that every dissenting or antagonistic expression be\n> abandoned and reinvented soon after its first release into the\n> infosphere. I also think that the expression \"tactical media\" was\n> launched at a great moment of political weakness and under-the-radar\n> diffuse experimentation from the left/anarchist side of the cultural\n> and political spectrums - a moment coinciding with the massification\n> of a new communicational toolkit. That those days are gone is pretty\n> clear (the state of exception was definitely the turning point), but\n> what's interesting is all they produced, the new possibilities. The\n> questions of what at the time was called tactical media, and more,\n> the forms of experimentation with communicational politics from\n> below, are something you can only move through as it happens and\n> leave aside as it disappears. Still, histories are fascinating when\n> they're not confused with futures.\n\nThe problem is that, at the moment there seems to exist a vacuum left\nover in the place that tactical media occupied. It seems to me that at\nleast in the North of the globe, in the last two years there has been\nsome kind of resignation from that left/anarchist side that you talk\nabout regarding emancipatory uses of technology and media. Fear has\ngained terrain. There's no new ideas. But who am I to say anything? I\nlive in Portugal, a country where nothing ever happens...\n\n>\n> There's something to that. First of all, De Certeau was inspired\n> by Brazil and wrote about it, if I'm not mistaken. Second, the\n> massification of the Internet toolkit is still underway in Brazil\n> and India. Third, the state and therefore, the cooptation apparatus\n> is weak in Brazil, though as far as I can see (on short visits)\n> it still works all too well. Actually, I think people in Brazil\n> and India would be best off inventing new concepts to really drive\n> home the point that things are happening - and should happen, are\n> urgently needed - in those specific contexts.\n\nWell, I must say I never really went to Brazil. What i wrote comes\nfrom all the experiences I have collected from mailing-lists,\nwikis, blogs and other collaborative online tools, apart from email\ninterviews.\n\n>\n> The thing that amazed me on my last trip to Sao Paulo was hearing\n> about the PCC weekend. What does nettime think about that? A gang\n> that has totally dominated the prison system in Sao Paulo state,\n> that controls the drug trade in the cities of that state (including\n> the megalopolis itself), that has built up a very sophisticated\n> economy and a functioning leadership structure, and is able to\n> coordinate an attack on the police using cell-phones from inside\n> the prisons, burning 60 buses and assaulting reportedly a hundred\n> police stations (is that true?), carrying out what friends of\n> mine described as a \"subjective occupation\"ofthemindsand\n>emotionsofoneofthelargestcitiesintheworld!Talkabout\n>tactics...Itseemsasthoughanetworkedcriminalorganization(the\n>PrimeiroCommandodaCapital)isabletorunringsaroundastate\n>whichcannotcatchuptoit,cannotinstallthekindofhi-tech\n>protectionanddistributedcontrolmechanismsthattheUSandother\n>Westerncountriesareworkingsodeperatelytoperfect.Thisis\n>fantasticallyinteresting,actuallyhopefulinsomewierdrespects\n>(ifthestatefailstothatdegree,mustitnotbereinvented?),\n>butmostlyjustastounding,withthegreatdangerthat
"subject":"<nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"hello N-time, \n\nThis November INDYMEDIA – (( i )) – will be 20 years old !!\n\nApril Glaser writes a good short history of the pioneering\nnetwork/platform/newsfeed … for Logic Magazine ( here ). But there’s\nprobably many more things that need to be analyzed in the history of the\nInternet and digital culture to understand and assess whether “Another\nNetwork Is Possible“… and where + how tactical media can unite\ncommunities tomorrow…\n\nhttps://logicmag.io/bodies/another-network-is-possible/\n\n...\n\nXLterrestrials are working on an expanded post about ALL that…\n\nhttp://xlterrestrials.org/plog/?p=19424\n\nexcerpt from Part 1: Where are we now ?\n\n>\n\n( that haunting + sad final-years-Bowie tune is playing back in our\nheads as we write… )\n\nThis is an extremely complicated discussion, and it will take more than\na short essay to sort through all the angles and dilemmas we find\nourselves soaking in with the cybernetic technodystopias +\ntechnospherical spectrum +/or rectal probes of the military/corporate\ncommunication industries, now oozing ubiquitous through all the tissues\nand orifices of human + social organization like electro-shock +\ndoctrines + disruption therapies to cure our inherited\nalready-anthropocene-driven madness… by accelerating it … like: Here\ntake this, it’s another anthropo-scenic downloading spiral into\nStephen-Pinker-esque \"tech-n-progress” Inc.\n\n>\n\n...\n\nOn a tangent note, it would be nice to put on some Indy-inspired type\ntactical media event...\n\nperhaps in the Btropolis ( Berlin ) for this anniversary date...\n\nAny ((i)) and N5Minutes veterans wanna play with us on that ? get in touch !\n\nThere is already something planned in Houston hosted by IMC folks there\n( at Rice U. ?) ...\n\nbut nothing in the EU territories yet, as far as we know... and WHY\nBtropolis?\n\nOne of its IMC sites is still active,\n\nand its more radical sibling offshoot, got the crackdown + kicked off\nthe webz 2 years ago. ( Linksunten )...\n\nAnd there's been heated discussions here about WHAT'S NEXT !!\n\n...\n\nliebegreetz !\n\npodinski\n\n\n0~~~~O-----o\nwww.xlterrestrials.org/plog \n arts + praxis organisms\no-----O~~~~~0\n\n\n\n\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@kein.org\n# @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:\n",
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"\n\n\n\nHello ex-((i)) and ex-N5M3 folks,\n\n\n\n\nJust like to point out thathttps://www.indymedia.nl/is still very much alive! I haven't been involved for many years now, but perhaps we could do something in Amsterdam, or barring that something in Berlin together\n with the Dutch ((i)) folks? I'd be happy to be involved somehow too!\n\n\n\n\nCheers, Ingrid.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nFrom: nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org <nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org> on behalf of podinski <podinski@mailbox.org>\nSent: 06 September 2019 15:42\nTo: nettime-l@mail.kein.org <nettime-l@mail.kein.org>\nSubject: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!\n\n\n\nhello N-time, \n\nThis November INDYMEDIA – (( i )) – will be 20 years old !!\n\nApril Glaser writes a good short history of the pioneering\nnetwork/platform/newsfeed … for Logic Magazine ( here ). But there’s\nprobably many more things that need to be analyzed in the history of the\nInternet and digital culture to understand and assess whether “Another\nNetwork Is Possible“… and where + how tactical media can unite\ncommunities tomorrow…\n\nhttps://logicmag.io/bodies/another-network-is-possible/\n\n...\n\nXLterrestrials are working on an expanded post about ALL that…\n\nhttp://xlterrestrials.org/plog/?p=19424\n\nexcerpt from Part 1: Where are we now ?\n\n>\n\n( that haunting + sad final-years-Bowie tune is playing back in our\nheads as we write… )\n\nThis is an extremely complicated discussion, and it will take more than\na short essay to sort through all the angles and dilemmas we find\nourselves soaking in with the cybernetic technodystopias +\ntechnospherical spectrum +/or rectal probes of the military/corporate\ncommunication industries, now oozing ubiquitous through all the tissues\nand orifices of human + social organization like electro-shock +\ndoctrines + disruption therapies to cure our inherited\nalready-anthropocene-driven madness… by accelerating it … like: Here\ntake this, it’s another anthropo-scenic downloading spiral into\nStephen-Pinker-esque \"tech-n-progress” Inc.\n\n>\n\n...\n\nOn a tangent note, it would be nice to put on some Indy-inspired type\ntactical media event...\n\nperhaps in the Btropolis ( Berlin ) for this anniversary date...\n\nAny ((i)) and N5Minutes veterans wanna play with us on that ? get in touch !\n\nThere is already something planned in Houston hosted by IMC folks there\n( at Rice U. ?) ...\n\nbut nothing in the EU territories yet, as far as we know... and WHY\nBtropolis?\n\nOne of its IMC sites is still active,\n\nand its more radical sibling offshoot, got the crackdown + kicked off\nthe webz 2 years ago. ( Linksunten )...\n\nAnd there's been heated discussions here about WHAT'S NEXT !!\n\n...\n\nliebegreetz !\n\npodinski\n\n\n0~~~~O-----o\nwww.xlterrestrials.org/plog \narts + praxis organisms\no-----O~~~~~0\n\n\n\n\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@kein.org\n# @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:\n\n\n\n\n# distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission\n# <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,\n# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets\n# more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l\n# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@kein.org\n# @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:\n",
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"\n \n \n Hi Ingrid et al,\n \n \n hmm, a little shocked that so few want to discuss the indymedia\n platform topic... and what it means for today's struggles... \n but na ja, so it goes in the web flood of efficiently cubicled\n (un-)solidarities... \n \n \n On 9/7/19 10:05 AM, Hoofd, I.M.\n (Ingrid) wrote:\n \n \n \n \n \n Hello ex-((i)) and ex-N5M3 folks,\n \n \n \n \n Just like to point out thathttps://www.indymedia.nl/is\n still very much alive! I haven't been involved for many years\n now, but perhaps we could do something in Amsterdam, or barring\n that something in Berlin together with the Dutch ((i)) folks?\n I'd be happy to be involved somehow too!\n \n sorry for slow reply... \n things have been a little overloaded... \n \n good to hear that NL ((i)) is still kicking... i believe there are\n several still out there providing useful public channels ( as\n mentioned in the article, ie. Argentina ) !\n \n Not quite sure how to proceed with any concrete event plans for\n Nov.... or beyond. \n but happy to hear that there are some comrades out there who want to\n be involved...\n \n Should be a topic at Transmediale 2019 \"e2e\"networktheme...\nhttps://2020.transmediale.de/festival-2020\n \n but one always has to wonder just how far out of touch the\n arts+cult+showtime sectors are with pragmatic activism + praxis ...\n i will check in to see, if not already too late. \n \n my cynical 2cent bits for the day...\n \n podinski\n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n Cheers, Ingrid.\n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n From:\n nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org\n <nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org> on behalf of\n podinski <podinski@mailbox.org>\n Sent: 06 September 2019 15:42\n To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org\n <nettime-l@mail.kein.org>\n Subject: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where\n are we now ?!\n \n \n \n hello N-time, \n \n This November INDYMEDIA – (( i )) – will be 20 years old\n !!\n \n April Glaser writes a good short history of the\n pioneering\n network/platform/newsfeed … for Logic Magazine ( here ).\n But there’s\n probably many more things that need to be analyzed in\n the history of the\n Internet and digital culture to understand and assess\n whether “Another\n Network Is Possible“… and where + how tactical media can\n unite\n communities tomorrow…\n \n https://logicmag.io/bodies/another-network-is-possible/\n \n ...\n \n XLterrestrials are working on an expanded post about ALL\n that…\n \n http://xlterrestrials.org/plog/?p=19424\n \n excerpt from Part 1: Where are we now ?\n \n >\n \n ( that haunting + sad final-years-Bowie tune is playing\n back in our\n heads as we write… )\n \n This is an extremely complicated discussion, and it will\n take more than\n a short essay to sort through all the angles and\n dilemmas we find\n ourselves soaking in with the cybernetic technodystopias\n +\n technospherical spectrum +/or rectal probes of the\n military/corporate\n communication industries, now oozing ubiquito
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"hi pod! long time no see, hi ingrid, tatiana from abya yala :)\n\nas for a long time user and educator on free technologies for creative\nmedia production I was a bit skeptical on the article - we dont need to\ncreate one more leftist tool, but re-ocuppy with purpose and love all\ncollective maintained tools - perhaps more influenced by intersectional\npoltics (I am reading Ocalan :) but the networkS are alive, dormant\nbecause NOT dispersed and very much re-creating itself all the time.\nfree philosophy and ethics becomes just more urgent then ever! As Krenak\nan indigenous leader in brazil says we have been using \"colored\nparachutes\" in this fall \"being able to maintain our subjectivities, our\nvisions, our poetics about existence\". \n\nwe are in shock with the fire but its from the ashes that we create! \n\nhere a recent ongoing work from the brazilian cyberfeminists\nhttps://midiatatica.desarquivo.org/ tactical archives from the last\ndecade by collective perspectives. \n\nbest for all!\nt\n\n\nEm 2019-09-10 08:19, podinski escreveu:\n> Hi Ingrid et al, \n> \n> hmm, a little shocked that so few want to discuss the indymedia\n> platform topic... and what it means for today's struggles... \n> but na ja, so it goes in the web flood of efficiently cubicled\n> (un-)solidarities... \n> \n> On 9/7/19 10:05 AM, Hoofd, I.M. (Ingrid) wrote:\n> \n>> Hello ex-((i)) and ex-N5M3 folks,\n>>\n>> Just like to point out that https://www.indymedia.nl/ is still very\n>> much alive! I haven't been involved for many years now, but perhaps\n>> we could do something in Amsterdam, or barring that something in\n>> Berlin together with the Dutch ((i)) folks? I'd be happy to be\n>> involved somehow too!\n> sorry for slow reply... \n> things have been a little overloaded... \n> \n> good to hear that NL ((i)) is still kicking... i believe there are\n> several still out there providing useful public channels ( as\n> mentioned in the article, ie. Argentina ) !\n> \n> Not quite sure how to proceed with any concrete event plans for\n> Nov.... or beyond. \n> but happy to hear that there are some comrades out there who want to\n> be involved...\n> \n> Should be a topic at Transmediale 2019 \"e2e\"networktheme...\n>https://2020.transmediale.de/festival-2020\n> \n> but one always has to wonder just how far out of touch the\n> arts+cult+showtime sectors are with pragmatic activism + praxis ...\n> i will check in to see, if not already too late. \n> \n> my cynical 2cent bits for the day...\n> \n> podinski\n> \n>> Cheers, Ingrid.\n>>\n>> -------------------------\n>>\n>> From: nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org\n>> <nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org> on behalf of podinski\n>> <podinski@mailbox.org>\n>> Sent: 06 September 2019 15:42\n>> To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org <nettime-l@mail.kein.org>\n>> Subject: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!\n>>\n>> hello N-time,\n>>\n>> This November INDYMEDIA – (( i )) – will be 20 years old !!\n>>\n>> April Glaser writes a good short history of the pioneering\n>> network/platform/newsfeed … for Logic Magazine ( here ). But\n>> there’s\n>> probably many more things that need to be analyzed in the history of\n>> the\n>> Internet and digital culture to understand and assess whether\n>> “Another\n>> Network Is Possible“… and where + how tactical media can unite\n>> communities tomorrow…\n>>\n>> https://logicmag.io/bodies/another-network-is-possible/\n>>\n>> ...\n>>\n>> XLterrestrials are working on an expanded post about ALL that…\n>>\n>> http://xlterrestrials.org/plog/?p=19424\n>>\n>> excerpt from Part 1: Where are we now ?\n>>\n>>>\n>>\n>> ( that haunting + sad final-years-Bowie tune is playing back in our\n>> heads as we write… )\n>>\n>> This is an extremely complicated discussion, and it will take more\n>> than\n>> a short essay to sort through all the angles and dilemmas we find\n>> ourselves soaking in with the cybernetic technodystopias +\n>> technospherical spectrum +/or rectal probes of the\n>> military/corporate\n>> communica
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"Hi Tati et al,\n\na pleasure to read some news from ya...\n\n+ thx for the link !\n\n...\n\nOn 9/11/19 2:38 PM, tacira@riseup.net wrote:\n> hi pod! long time no see, hi ingrid, tatiana from abya yala :)\n>\n> as for a long time user and educator on free technologies for creative\n> media production I was a bit skeptical on the article - we dont need to\n> create one more leftist tool, but re-ocuppy with purpose and love all\n> collective maintained tools - perhaps more influenced by intersectional\n> poltics (I am reading Ocalan :) but the networkS are alive, dormant\n> because NOT dispersed and very much re-creating itself all the time.\n> free philosophy and ethics becomes just more urgent then ever! As Krenak\n> an indigenous leader in brazil says we have been using \"colored\n> parachutes\" in this fall \"being able to maintain our subjectivities, our\n> visions, our poetics about existence\". \nyes, well it is not hard for me to be critical about More leftist tools...\nwe are getting very lost - and abused - in all the tooling around.\n\nAnd i think the article may point out clearly towards HOW we lost one\npossible road that the net could have taken to network our communities,\nsolidarities and resistance... \n\nI probably dont need to go into the details here of how that all got\nco-opted and used in the creepiest of ways to consolidate power and turn\nus all into its subjects and products. ( Neo-liberal + libertarian\nnetz, surveillance krapitalism and all that mess )\n\nIF the net can be reclaimed at all from the monstrous sprawl of\nill-intents...\nit would probably require new architectures that cannot be easily\nswallowed up by the Titans' toxic web.\n\nAs Rasmus Fleischer pointedly remarked at one of the recent\nTransmediales : this is what a failed rev looks like.\n\nI don't have any clear proposals for that, but that could be part of\nwhat would make sense with this ((i)) anniversary...\nto understand what we lost, and how we got where we are... and what\nrecourse makes sense now...\n\n...\n\nFrom an XLterrestrial perspective, it might be an important tactical\nmaneuver to get our feet back on the ground, locally... and \"shield\nourselves\" from the fallout of having \"lost the digital revolution\" ...\nand get more focused on our biological + ecological struggles.\n\n...\n\nXLt is perhaps far more optimistic about what we can achieve by learning\nfrom the cultures of resistance in the global south... and outside all\nthe tech hype !\nAnd not allowing the domination of tech environments to be our\nsurrogated means to imagining any new re-occupying strategies.\n\n...\n\nJust read yesterday an interesting story about Food Sovereignty and in\n2011 Russia... 40% of the food came from Dacha gardens... \n\n\"dacha gardens produced over 80% of the countries fruit and berries,\nover 66% of the vegetables, almost 80% of the potatoes and nearly 50% of\nthe nations milk, much of it consumed raw. \"\n\nhttp://naturalhomes.org/naturalliving/russian-dacha.htm?fbclid=IwAR1ia40bjy-j6-1H8DnGejakGBeg0Gn1VqED6sjk5A6sN8KOGg35hyn7pkE\n\nhavent checked out the accuracy of this, but the shift in topics +\norganizational objectives... seems very revelant !\n\n...\n\nJust last year Chaos Congress teamed up with FifF and others to put on a\nconference called Bits Und Baume ( and trees ) to finally take seriously\nthe ecological consequences of the poorly miscalculated unsustainability\nof all our endlessly expanding high tech cultures.\n\nIt only took 35 years for CCC to get around to this crucial topic... ;)\n... but i think some good things are coming together for further\ninvestigations into realistic terrestrial-based missions ... and less in\n\"hackers on the moon\".\n\nhttps://bits-und-baeume.org/en\n\n...\n\nLastly,\nto emphasize my points...\n\ni leave you all with this talk from Boaventura de Sousa Santos ...\nat HKW's Now is The Time Of Monsters : What comes after Nations... in\n2017...\n\n( which followed a talk from Felix Stadler on Protocols - and tech - for\nDe
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"Hi Matze,\n\ni tried recently to follow and catch-up on the debacle of linksunten and\nstate censorship...\nand picked up the pamphlet :\nverboten ! zur Kriminalisierung von Indymedia linksunten\nvia Rote Hilfe e.v.\n\nbut havent yet had time to get thru it.\n\n...\n\nre: the issue of the liberated webs and copy left...\ni have begun to think that another unexpected + massive fallout has\noccurred with all this online free content falling into... the Titan\ngrip...\n\nand in the idealism of trying to \" common-ize\" and/or \"dismantle\ncapitalism\" on the net, but not in the AFK world... as the majority of\nus still live in the realms of landlord strangleholds...\n \nprotection of labor and the livelihoods of content producers and indy\npublishers + DIY distro merchants was not very well considered... in the\neco-systems of books, media, data, small business and shop owners... \nand people's having to make their money to survive... pay rent.... or\nrecoup their production budgets ( see Astra Taylor's The People's\nPlatform )...\n\nCopyright is a completely re-openable subject... of hot debate....\n\nwhich HKW is also being revisited again this year ( 100 Years Of\nCopyright and Part 2 : Right the Right... this Nov. )\n... but i am not so hopeful they will handle the topic radically enough,\nbecause in the end they are already looking for tech solutionism to fill\nin the grim situations... ie blockchain in the music industry ?\n\nbut no time to get very sophisticated in that beastly and tedious topic.\n\n...\n\ncheers,\np.\n\n\n \nOn 9/10/19 5:40 PM, Matze Schmidt wrote:\n> One more:\n>\n> Sebastian Luetgert in an interview mit textz.com (in German): \n> https://de.indymedia.org/2004/03/76975.shtml\n>\n> Am 10.09.2019 um 16:12 schrieb Matze Schmidt <matzeschmidt@matzeschmidt.de>:\n>\n> Hi,\n>\n> I remember when topics died. Esp. when Sebasian Luetgert 10?, 15? years ago was about sceptical talking about indymedia some years after the beginning of this platform. The radical pragmatists in Berlin sat there with a shrug.\n>\n> What's more important now is a struggle by a left against a state as a censor amidst the general new swing to the right, see here in German:\n>\n> https://twitter.com/zineworkshop/status/1161884759364198400?s=20\n>\n> Matze\n>\n> Am 10.09.2019 um 13:19 schrieb podinski <podinski@mailbox.org>:\n>\n> Hi Ingrid et al,\n>\n> hmm, a little shocked that so few want to discuss the indymedia platform topic... and what it means for today's struggles... \n> but na ja, so it goes in the web flood of efficiently cubicled (un-)solidarities... \n>\n>\n> On 9/7/19 10:05 AM, Hoofd, I.M. (Ingrid) wrote:\n>> Hello ex-((i)) and ex-N5M3 folks,\n>>\n>> Just like to point out that https://www.indymedia.nl/ is still very much alive! I haven't been involved for many years now, but perhaps we could do something in Amsterdam, or barring that something in Berlin together with the Dutch ((i)) folks? I'd be happy to be involved somehow too!\n> sorry for slow reply... \n> things have been a little overloaded... \n>\n> good to hear that NL ((i)) is still kicking... i believe there are several still out there providing useful public channels ( as mentioned in the article, ie. Argentina ) !\n>\n> Not quite sure how to proceed with any concrete event plans for Nov.... or beyond. \n> but happy to hear that there are some comrades out there who want to be involved...\n>\n> Should be a topic at Transmediale 2019 \"e2e\"networktheme...\n>https://2020.transmediale.de/festival-2020\n>\n> but one always has to wonder just how far out of touch the arts+cult+showtime sectors are with pragmatic activism + praxis ...\n> i will check in to see, if not already too late. \n>\n> my cynical 2cent bits for the day...\n>\n> podinski\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>> Cheers, Ingrid.\n>>\n>>\n>> From: nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org <nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org> on behalf of podinski <podinski@mailbox.org>\n>> Sent: 06 September 2019 15:42\n>> To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org <nettime-l@mail.kein.org>\n>>
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"hi pod! long time no see, hi ingrid, tatiana from abya yala :)\n\nas for a long time user and educator on free technologies for creative\nmedia production I was a bit skeptical on the article - we dont need to\ncreate one more leftist tool, but re-ocuppy with purpose and love all\ncollective maintained tools - perhaps more influenced by intersectional\npoltics (I am reading Ocalan :) but the networkS are alive, dormant\nbecause NOT dispersed and very much re-creating itself all the time.\nfree philosophy and ethics becomes just more urgent then ever! As Krenak\nan indigenous leader in brazil says we have been using \"colored\nparachutes\" in this fall \"being able to maintain our subjectivities, our\nvisions, our poetics about existence\". \n\nwe are in shock with the fire but its from the ashes that we create! \n\nhere a recent ongoing work from the brazilian cyberfeminists\nhttps://midiatatica.desarquivo.org/ tactical archives from the last\ndecade by collective perspectives. \n\nbest for all!\nt\n\n\nEm 2019-09-10 08:19, podinski escreveu:\n> Hi Ingrid et al, \n> \n> hmm, a little shocked that so few want to discuss the indymedia\n> platform topic... and what it means for today's struggles... \n> but na ja, so it goes in the web flood of efficiently cubicled\n> (un-)solidarities... \n> \n> On 9/7/19 10:05 AM, Hoofd, I.M. (Ingrid) wrote:\n> \n>> Hello ex-((i)) and ex-N5M3 folks,\n>>\n>> Just like to point out that https://www.indymedia.nl/ is still very\n>> much alive! I haven't been involved for many years now, but perhaps\n>> we could do something in Amsterdam, or barring that something in\n>> Berlin together with the Dutch ((i)) folks? I'd be happy to be\n>> involved somehow too!\n> sorry for slow reply... \n> things have been a little overloaded... \n> \n> good to hear that NL ((i)) is still kicking... i believe there are\n> several still out there providing useful public channels ( as\n> mentioned in the article, ie. Argentina ) !\n> \n> Not quite sure how to proceed with any concrete event plans for\n> Nov.... or beyond. \n> but happy to hear that there are some comrades out there who want to\n> be involved...\n> \n> Should be a topic at Transmediale 2019 \"e2e\"networktheme...\n>https://2020.transmediale.de/festival-2020\n> \n> but one always has to wonder just how far out of touch the\n> arts+cult+showtime sectors are with pragmatic activism + praxis ...\n> i will check in to see, if not already too late. \n> \n> my cynical 2cent bits for the day...\n> \n> podinski\n> \n>> Cheers, Ingrid.\n>>\n>> -------------------------\n>>\n>> From: nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org\n>> <nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org> on behalf of podinski\n>> <podinski@mailbox.org>\n>> Sent: 06 September 2019 15:42\n>> To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org <nettime-l@mail.kein.org>\n>> Subject: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!\n>>\n>> hello N-time,\n>>\n>> This November INDYMEDIA – (( i )) – will be 20 years old !!\n>>\n>> April Glaser writes a good short history of the pioneering\n>> network/platform/newsfeed … for Logic Magazine ( here ). But\n>> there’s\n>> probably many more things that need to be analyzed in the history of\n>> the\n>> Internet and digital culture to understand and assess whether\n>> “Another\n>> Network Is Possible“… and where + how tactical media can unite\n>> communities tomorrow…\n>>\n>> https://logicmag.io/bodies/another-network-is-possible/\n>>\n>> ...\n>>\n>> XLterrestrials are working on an expanded post about ALL that…\n>>\n>> http://xlterrestrials.org/plog/?p=19424\n>>\n>> excerpt from Part 1: Where are we now ?\n>>\n>>>\n>>\n>> ( that haunting + sad final-years-Bowie tune is playing back in our\n>> heads as we write… )\n>>\n>> This is an extremely complicated discussion, and it will take more\n>> than\n>> a short essay to sort through all the angles and dilemmas we find\n>> ourselves soaking in with the cybernetic technodystopias +\n>> technospherical spectrum +/or rectal probes of the\n>> military/corporate\n>> communication ind
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"Hi Tati et al,\n\na pleasure to read some news from ya...\n\n+ thx for the link !\n\n...\n\nOn 9/11/19 2:38 PM, tacira@riseup.net wrote:\n> hi pod! long time no see, hi ingrid, tatiana from abya yala :)\n>\n> as for a long time user and educator on free technologies for creative\n> media production I was a bit skeptical on the article - we dont need to\n> create one more leftist tool, but re-ocuppy with purpose and love all\n> collective maintained tools - perhaps more influenced by intersectional\n> poltics (I am reading Ocalan :) but the networkS are alive, dormant\n> because NOT dispersed and very much re-creating itself all the time.\n> free philosophy and ethics becomes just more urgent then ever! As Krenak\n> an indigenous leader in brazil says we have been using \"colored\n> parachutes\" in this fall \"being able to maintain our subjectivities, our\n> visions, our poetics about existence\". \nyes, well it is not hard for me to be critical about More leftist tools...\nwe are getting very lost - and abused - in all the tooling around.\n\nAnd i think the article may point out clearly towards HOW we lost one\npossible road that the net could have taken to network our communities,\nsolidarities and resistance... \n\nI probably dont need to go into the details here of how that all got\nco-opted and used in the creepiest of ways to consolidate power and turn\nus all into its subjects and products. ( Neo-liberal + libertarian\nnetz, surveillance krapitalism and all that mess )\n\nIF the net can be reclaimed at all from the monstrous sprawl of\nill-intents...\nit would probably require new architectures that cannot be easily\nswallowed up by the Titans' toxic web.\n\nAs Rasmus Fleischer pointedly remarked at one of the recent\nTransmediales : this is what a failed rev looks like.\n\nI don't have any clear proposals for that, but that could be part of\nwhat would make sense with this ((i)) anniversary...\nto understand what we lost, and how we got where we are... and what\nrecourse makes sense now...\n\n...\n\nFrom an XLterrestrial perspective, it might be an important tactical\nmaneuver to get our feet back on the ground, locally... and \"shield\nourselves\" from the fallout of having \"lost the digital revolution\" ...\nand get more focused on our biological + ecological struggles.\n\n...\n\nXLt is perhaps far more optimistic about what we can achieve by learning\nfrom the cultures of resistance in the global south... and outside all\nthe tech hype !\nAnd not allowing the domination of tech environments to be our\nsurrogated means to imagining any new re-occupying strategies.\n\n...\n\nJust read yesterday an interesting story about Food Sovereignty and in\n2011 Russia... 40% of the food came from Dacha gardens... \n\n\"dacha gardens produced over 80% of the countries fruit and berries,\nover 66% of the vegetables, almost 80% of the potatoes and nearly 50% of\nthe nations milk, much of it consumed raw. \"\n\nhttp://naturalhomes.org/naturalliving/russian-dacha.htm?fbclid=IwAR1ia40bjy-j6-1H8DnGejakGBeg0Gn1VqED6sjk5A6sN8KOGg35hyn7pkE\n\nhavent checked out the accuracy of this, but the shift in topics +\norganizational objectives... seems very revelant !\n\n...\n\nJust last year Chaos Congress teamed up with FifF and others to put on a\nconference called Bits Und Baume ( and trees ) to finally take seriously\nthe ecological consequences of the poorly miscalculated unsustainability\nof all our endlessly expanding high tech cultures.\n\nIt only took 35 years for CCC to get around to this crucial topic... ;)\n... but i think some good things are coming together for further\ninvestigations into realistic terrestrial-based missions ... and less in\n\"hackers on the moon\".\n\nhttps://bits-und-baeume.org/en\n\n...\n\nLastly,\nto emphasize my points...\n\ni leave you all with this talk from Boaventura de Sousa Santos ...\nat HKW's Now is The Time Of Monsters : What comes after Nations... in\n2017...\n\n( which followed a talk from Felix Stadler on Protocols - and tech - for\nDemocracy?
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"Hi Matze,\n\ni tried recently to follow and catch-up on the debacle of linksunten and\nstate censorship...\nand picked up the pamphlet :\nverboten ! zur Kriminalisierung von Indymedia linksunten\nvia Rote Hilfe e.v.\n\nbut havent yet had time to get thru it.\n\n...\n\nre: the issue of the liberated webs and copy left...\ni have begun to think that another unexpected + massive fallout has\noccurred with all this online free content falling into... the Titan\ngrip...\n\nand in the idealism of trying to \" common-ize\" and/or \"dismantle\ncapitalism\" on the net, but not in the AFK world... as the majority of\nus still live in the realms of landlord strangleholds...\n \nprotection of labor and the livelihoods of content producers and indy\npublishers + DIY distro merchants was not very well considered... in the\neco-systems of books, media, data, small business and shop owners... \nand people's having to make their money to survive... pay rent.... or\nrecoup their production budgets ( see Astra Taylor's The People's\nPlatform )...\n\nCopyright is a completely re-openable subject... of hot debate....\n\nwhich HKW is also being revisited again this year ( 100 Years Of\nCopyright and Part 2 : Right the Right... this Nov. )\n... but i am not so hopeful they will handle the topic radically enough,\nbecause in the end they are already looking for tech solutionism to fill\nin the grim situations... ie blockchain in the music industry ?\n\nbut no time to get very sophisticated in that beastly and tedious topic.\n\n...\n\ncheers,\np.\n\n\n \nOn 9/10/19 5:40 PM, Matze Schmidt wrote:\n> One more:\n>\n> Sebastian Luetgert in an interview mit textz.com (in German): \n> https://de.indymedia.org/2004/03/76975.shtml\n>\n> Am 10.09.2019 um 16:12 schrieb Matze Schmidt <matzeschmidt@matzeschmidt.de>:\n>\n> Hi,\n>\n> I remember when topics died. Esp. when Sebasian Luetgert 10?, 15? years ago was about sceptical talking about indymedia some years after the beginning of this platform. The radical pragmatists in Berlin sat there with a shrug.\n>\n> What's more important now is a struggle by a left against a state as a censor amidst the general new swing to the right, see here in German:\n>\n> https://twitter.com/zineworkshop/status/1161884759364198400?s=20\n>\n> Matze\n>\n> Am 10.09.2019 um 13:19 schrieb podinski <podinski@mailbox.org>:\n>\n> Hi Ingrid et al,\n>\n> hmm, a little shocked that so few want to discuss the indymedia platform topic... and what it means for today's struggles... \n> but na ja, so it goes in the web flood of efficiently cubicled (un-)solidarities... \n>\n>\n> On 9/7/19 10:05 AM, Hoofd, I.M. (Ingrid) wrote:\n>> Hello ex-((i)) and ex-N5M3 folks,\n>>\n>> Just like to point out that https://www.indymedia.nl/ is still very much alive! I haven't been involved for many years now, but perhaps we could do something in Amsterdam, or barring that something in Berlin together with the Dutch ((i)) folks? I'd be happy to be involved somehow too!\n> sorry for slow reply... \n> things have been a little overloaded... \n>\n> good to hear that NL ((i)) is still kicking... i believe there are several still out there providing useful public channels ( as mentioned in the article, ie. Argentina ) !\n>\n> Not quite sure how to proceed with any concrete event plans for Nov.... or beyond. \n> but happy to hear that there are some comrades out there who want to be involved...\n>\n> Should be a topic at Transmediale 2019 \"e2e\"networktheme...\n>https://2020.transmediale.de/festival-2020\n>\n> but one always has to wonder just how far out of touch the arts+cult+showtime sectors are with pragmatic activism + praxis ...\n> i will check in to see, if not already too late. \n>\n> my cynical 2cent bits for the day...\n>\n> podinski\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>> Cheers, Ingrid.\n>>\n>>\n>> From: nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org <nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org> on behalf of podinski <podinski@mailbox.org>\n>> Sent: 06 September 2019 15:42\n>> To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org <nettime-l@mail.kein.org>\n>> Subject
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"\n \n \n Hello nettime,\n and Tish, thx for posting the link to the indy event in Houston !\n reposting here below... \n \n because your post is not showing up in the list archives.\n ( perhaps because it's a reply To me, and Then cc'd to list...\n not sure )\n will be in touch, if we get something happening in Berlin... \n \n all the best,\n p.\n \n \n \n -------- Forwarded Message --------\n \n \n \n Subject:\n \n Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we\n now ?!\n \n \n Date: \n Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:51:54 -0500\n \n \n From: \n tish stringer <tish@rice.edu>\n \n \n To: \n podinski <podinski@mailbox.org>\n \n \n CC: \n nettime-l@mail.kein.org <nettime-l@mail.kein.org>,\n Hoofd, I.M. (Ingrid) <I.M.Hoofd@uu.nl>, indymedia\n encuentro <indyat20@dangerousmedia.org>\n \n \n \n \n \n \n Hello Nettime!\n \n \n I’m one of the organizers of the indy20 encuentro\n event in Houston, Texas. We are having an art show, film\n festival and panels to celebrate indymedia. We would LOVE to do\n some type of simulcast on N30 if any other groups are gathering.\n We know of some events in Argentina and Seattle we are hoping to\n coordinate with. We are hoping there will be loads of\n decentralized celebrations but of course all are welcome at our\n event. I threw up a very rough website this weekend that will\n improve in the coming days with the full schedule etc. but feel\n free to pass it along if others are looking to get in touch with\n us.\n \n \n http://indy20.dangerousmedia.org/\n \n \n Cheers!\n Tish\n \n \n \n \n \n On Sep 10, 2019, at 6:19 AM, podinski <podinski@mailbox.org>\n wrote:\n \n \n Hi\n Ingrid et al,\n \n \n hmm,\n a little shocked that so few want to discuss the\n indymedia platform topic... and what it means for\n today's struggles...\n but\n na ja, so it goes in the web flood of efficiently\n cubicled (un-)solidarities...\n \n \n On 9/7/19 10:05 AM, Hoofd, I.M. (Ingrid) wrote:\n \n \n Hello ex-((i))\n and ex-N5M3 folks,\n \n \n Just like to\n point out thathttps://www.indymedia.nl/is\n still very much alive! I haven't been involved for\n many years now, but perhaps we could do something in\n Amsterdam, or barring that something in Berlin\n together with the Dutch ((i)) folks? I'd be happy to\n be involved somehow too!\n \n sorry\n for slow reply...\n things\n have been a little overloaded...\n \n good\n to hear that NL ((i)) is still kicking... i believe\n there are several still out there providing useful\n public channels ( as mentioned in the article, ie.\n Argentina ) !\n \n Not\n quite sure how to proceed with any concrete event plans\n for Nov.... or beyond.\n but\n happy to hear that there are some comrades out there who\n want to be involved...\n \n Should\n be a topic at Transmediale 2019 \"e2e\"networktheme...\n
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"\n \n \n Hi Ingrid et al,\n \n \n hmm, a little shocked that so few want to discuss the indymedia\n platform topic... and what it means for today's struggles... \n but na ja, so it goes in the web flood of efficiently cubicled\n (un-)solidarities... \n \n \n On 9/7/19 10:05 AM, Hoofd, I.M.\n (Ingrid) wrote:\n \n \n \n \n \n Hello ex-((i)) and ex-N5M3 folks,\n \n \n \n \n Just like to point out thathttps://www.indymedia.nl/is\n still very much alive! I haven't been involved for many years\n now, but perhaps we could do something in Amsterdam, or barring\n that something in Berlin together with the Dutch ((i)) folks?\n I'd be happy to be involved somehow too!\n \n sorry for slow reply... \n things have been a little overloaded... \n \n good to hear that NL ((i)) is still kicking... i believe there are\n several still out there providing useful public channels ( as\n mentioned in the article, ie. Argentina ) !\n \n Not quite sure how to proceed with any concrete event plans for\n Nov.... or beyond. \n but happy to hear that there are some comrades out there who want to\n be involved...\n \n Should be a topic at Transmediale 2019 \"e2e\"networktheme...\nhttps://2020.transmediale.de/festival-2020\n \n but one always has to wonder just how far out of touch the\n arts+cult+showtime sectors are with pragmatic activism + praxis ...\n i will check in to see, if not already too late. \n \n my cynical 2cent bits for the day...\n \n podinski\n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n Cheers, Ingrid.\n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n From:\n nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org\n <nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org> on behalf of\n podinski <podinski@mailbox.org>\n Sent: 06 September 2019 15:42\n To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org\n <nettime-l@mail.kein.org>\n Subject: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where\n are we now ?!\n \n \n \n hello N-time, \n \n This November INDYMEDIA – (( i )) – will be 20 years old\n !!\n \n April Glaser writes a good short history of the\n pioneering\n network/platform/newsfeed … for Logic Magazine ( here ).\n But there’s\n probably many more things that need to be analyzed in\n the history of the\n Internet and digital culture to understand and assess\n whether “Another\n Network Is Possible“… and where + how tactical media can\n unite\n communities tomorrow…\n \n https://logicmag.io/bodies/another-network-is-possible/\n \n ...\n \n XLterrestrials are working on an expanded post about ALL\n that…\n \n http://xlterrestrials.org/plog/?p=19424\n \n excerpt from Part 1: Where are we now ?\n \n >\n \n ( that haunting + sad final-years-Bowie tune is playing\n back in our\n heads as we write… )\n \n This is an extremely complicated discussion, and it will\n take more than\n a short essay to sort through all the angles and\n dilemmas we find\n ourselves soaking in with the cybernetic technodystopias\n +\n technospherical spectrum +/or rectal probes of the\n military/corporate\n communication industries, now oozing ubiquitous throu
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"hi pod! long time no see, hi ingrid, tatiana from abya yala :)\n\nas for a long time user and educator on free technologies for creative\nmedia production I was a bit skeptical on the article - we dont need to\ncreate one more leftist tool, but re-ocuppy with purpose and love all\ncollective maintained tools - perhaps more influenced by intersectional\npoltics (I am reading Ocalan :) but the networkS are alive, dormant\nbecause NOT dispersed and very much re-creating itself all the time.\nfree philosophy and ethics becomes just more urgent then ever! As Krenak\nan indigenous leader in brazil says we have been using \"colored\nparachutes\" in this fall \"being able to maintain our subjectivities, our\nvisions, our poetics about existence\". \n\nwe are in shock with the fire but its from the ashes that we create! \n\nhere a recent ongoing work from the brazilian cyberfeminists\nhttps://midiatatica.desarquivo.org/ tactical archives from the last\ndecade by collective perspectives. \n\nbest for all!\nt\n\n\nEm 2019-09-10 08:19, podinski escreveu:\n> Hi Ingrid et al, \n> \n> hmm, a little shocked that so few want to discuss the indymedia\n> platform topic... and what it means for today's struggles... \n> but na ja, so it goes in the web flood of efficiently cubicled\n> (un-)solidarities... \n> \n> On 9/7/19 10:05 AM, Hoofd, I.M. (Ingrid) wrote:\n> \n>> Hello ex-((i)) and ex-N5M3 folks,\n>>\n>> Just like to point out that https://www.indymedia.nl/ is still very\n>> much alive! I haven't been involved for many years now, but perhaps\n>> we could do something in Amsterdam, or barring that something in\n>> Berlin together with the Dutch ((i)) folks? I'd be happy to be\n>> involved somehow too!\n> sorry for slow reply... \n> things have been a little overloaded... \n> \n> good to hear that NL ((i)) is still kicking... i believe there are\n> several still out there providing useful public channels ( as\n> mentioned in the article, ie. Argentina ) !\n> \n> Not quite sure how to proceed with any concrete event plans for\n> Nov.... or beyond. \n> but happy to hear that there are some comrades out there who want to\n> be involved...\n> \n> Should be a topic at Transmediale 2019 \"e2e\"networktheme...\n>https://2020.transmediale.de/festival-2020\n> \n> but one always has to wonder just how far out of touch the\n> arts+cult+showtime sectors are with pragmatic activism + praxis ...\n> i will check in to see, if not already too late. \n> \n> my cynical 2cent bits for the day...\n> \n> podinski\n> \n>> Cheers, Ingrid.\n>>\n>> -------------------------\n>>\n>> From: nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org\n>> <nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org> on behalf of podinski\n>> <podinski@mailbox.org>\n>> Sent: 06 September 2019 15:42\n>> To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org <nettime-l@mail.kein.org>\n>> Subject: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!\n>>\n>> hello N-time,\n>>\n>> This November INDYMEDIA – (( i )) – will be 20 years old !!\n>>\n>> April Glaser writes a good short history of the pioneering\n>> network/platform/newsfeed … for Logic Magazine ( here ). But\n>> there’s\n>> probably many more things that need to be analyzed in the history of\n>> the\n>> Internet and digital culture to understand and assess whether\n>> “Another\n>> Network Is Possible“… and where + how tactical media can unite\n>> communities tomorrow…\n>>\n>> https://logicmag.io/bodies/another-network-is-possible/\n>>\n>> ...\n>>\n>> XLterrestrials are working on an expanded post about ALL that…\n>>\n>> http://xlterrestrials.org/plog/?p=19424\n>>\n>> excerpt from Part 1: Where are we now ?\n>>\n>>>\n>>\n>> ( that haunting + sad final-years-Bowie tune is playing back in our\n>> heads as we write… )\n>>\n>> This is an extremely complicated discussion, and it will take more\n>> than\n>> a short essay to sort through all the angles and dilemmas we find\n>> ourselves soaking in with the cybernetic technodystopias +\n>> technospherical spectrum +/or rectal probes of the\n>> military/corporate\n>> communication ind
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"Hi Tati et al,\n\na pleasure to read some news from ya...\n\n+ thx for the link !\n\n...\n\nOn 9/11/19 2:38 PM, tacira@riseup.net wrote:\n> hi pod! long time no see, hi ingrid, tatiana from abya yala :)\n>\n> as for a long time user and educator on free technologies for creative\n> media production I was a bit skeptical on the article - we dont need to\n> create one more leftist tool, but re-ocuppy with purpose and love all\n> collective maintained tools - perhaps more influenced by intersectional\n> poltics (I am reading Ocalan :) but the networkS are alive, dormant\n> because NOT dispersed and very much re-creating itself all the time.\n> free philosophy and ethics becomes just more urgent then ever! As Krenak\n> an indigenous leader in brazil says we have been using \"colored\n> parachutes\" in this fall \"being able to maintain our subjectivities, our\n> visions, our poetics about existence\". \nyes, well it is not hard for me to be critical about More leftist tools...\nwe are getting very lost - and abused - in all the tooling around.\n\nAnd i think the article may point out clearly towards HOW we lost one\npossible road that the net could have taken to network our communities,\nsolidarities and resistance... \n\nI probably dont need to go into the details here of how that all got\nco-opted and used in the creepiest of ways to consolidate power and turn\nus all into its subjects and products. ( Neo-liberal + libertarian\nnetz, surveillance krapitalism and all that mess )\n\nIF the net can be reclaimed at all from the monstrous sprawl of\nill-intents...\nit would probably require new architectures that cannot be easily\nswallowed up by the Titans' toxic web.\n\nAs Rasmus Fleischer pointedly remarked at one of the recent\nTransmediales : this is what a failed rev looks like.\n\nI don't have any clear proposals for that, but that could be part of\nwhat would make sense with this ((i)) anniversary...\nto understand what we lost, and how we got where we are... and what\nrecourse makes sense now...\n\n...\n\nFrom an XLterrestrial perspective, it might be an important tactical\nmaneuver to get our feet back on the ground, locally... and \"shield\nourselves\" from the fallout of having \"lost the digital revolution\" ...\nand get more focused on our biological + ecological struggles.\n\n...\n\nXLt is perhaps far more optimistic about what we can achieve by learning\nfrom the cultures of resistance in the global south... and outside all\nthe tech hype !\nAnd not allowing the domination of tech environments to be our\nsurrogated means to imagining any new re-occupying strategies.\n\n...\n\nJust read yesterday an interesting story about Food Sovereignty and in\n2011 Russia... 40% of the food came from Dacha gardens... \n\n\"dacha gardens produced over 80% of the countries fruit and berries,\nover 66% of the vegetables, almost 80% of the potatoes and nearly 50% of\nthe nations milk, much of it consumed raw. \"\n\nhttp://naturalhomes.org/naturalliving/russian-dacha.htm?fbclid=IwAR1ia40bjy-j6-1H8DnGejakGBeg0Gn1VqED6sjk5A6sN8KOGg35hyn7pkE\n\nhavent checked out the accuracy of this, but the shift in topics +\norganizational objectives... seems very revelant !\n\n...\n\nJust last year Chaos Congress teamed up with FifF and others to put on a\nconference called Bits Und Baume ( and trees ) to finally take seriously\nthe ecological consequences of the poorly miscalculated unsustainability\nof all our endlessly expanding high tech cultures.\n\nIt only took 35 years for CCC to get around to this crucial topic... ;)\n... but i think some good things are coming together for further\ninvestigations into realistic terrestrial-based missions ... and less in\n\"hackers on the moon\".\n\nhttps://bits-und-baeume.org/en\n\n...\n\nLastly,\nto emphasize my points...\n\ni leave you all with this talk from Boaventura de Sousa Santos ...\nat HKW's Now is The Time Of Monsters : What comes after Nations... in\n2017...\n\n( which followed a talk from Felix Stadler on Protocols - and tech - for\nDemocracy?
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"Hi Matze,\n\ni tried recently to follow and catch-up on the debacle of linksunten and\nstate censorship...\nand picked up the pamphlet :\nverboten ! zur Kriminalisierung von Indymedia linksunten\nvia Rote Hilfe e.v.\n\nbut havent yet had time to get thru it.\n\n...\n\nre: the issue of the liberated webs and copy left...\ni have begun to think that another unexpected + massive fallout has\noccurred with all this online free content falling into... the Titan\ngrip...\n\nand in the idealism of trying to \" common-ize\" and/or \"dismantle\ncapitalism\" on the net, but not in the AFK world... as the majority of\nus still live in the realms of landlord strangleholds...\n \nprotection of labor and the livelihoods of content producers and indy\npublishers + DIY distro merchants was not very well considered... in the\neco-systems of books, media, data, small business and shop owners... \nand people's having to make their money to survive... pay rent.... or\nrecoup their production budgets ( see Astra Taylor's The People's\nPlatform )...\n\nCopyright is a completely re-openable subject... of hot debate....\n\nwhich HKW is also being revisited again this year ( 100 Years Of\nCopyright and Part 2 : Right the Right... this Nov. )\n... but i am not so hopeful they will handle the topic radically enough,\nbecause in the end they are already looking for tech solutionism to fill\nin the grim situations... ie blockchain in the music industry ?\n\nbut no time to get very sophisticated in that beastly and tedious topic.\n\n...\n\ncheers,\np.\n\n\n \nOn 9/10/19 5:40 PM, Matze Schmidt wrote:\n> One more:\n>\n> Sebastian Luetgert in an interview mit textz.com (in German): \n> https://de.indymedia.org/2004/03/76975.shtml\n>\n> Am 10.09.2019 um 16:12 schrieb Matze Schmidt <matzeschmidt@matzeschmidt.de>:\n>\n> Hi,\n>\n> I remember when topics died. Esp. when Sebasian Luetgert 10?, 15? years ago was about sceptical talking about indymedia some years after the beginning of this platform. The radical pragmatists in Berlin sat there with a shrug.\n>\n> What's more important now is a struggle by a left against a state as a censor amidst the general new swing to the right, see here in German:\n>\n> https://twitter.com/zineworkshop/status/1161884759364198400?s=20\n>\n> Matze\n>\n> Am 10.09.2019 um 13:19 schrieb podinski <podinski@mailbox.org>:\n>\n> Hi Ingrid et al,\n>\n> hmm, a little shocked that so few want to discuss the indymedia platform topic... and what it means for today's struggles... \n> but na ja, so it goes in the web flood of efficiently cubicled (un-)solidarities... \n>\n>\n> On 9/7/19 10:05 AM, Hoofd, I.M. (Ingrid) wrote:\n>> Hello ex-((i)) and ex-N5M3 folks,\n>>\n>> Just like to point out that https://www.indymedia.nl/ is still very much alive! I haven't been involved for many years now, but perhaps we could do something in Amsterdam, or barring that something in Berlin together with the Dutch ((i)) folks? I'd be happy to be involved somehow too!\n> sorry for slow reply... \n> things have been a little overloaded... \n>\n> good to hear that NL ((i)) is still kicking... i believe there are several still out there providing useful public channels ( as mentioned in the article, ie. Argentina ) !\n>\n> Not quite sure how to proceed with any concrete event plans for Nov.... or beyond. \n> but happy to hear that there are some comrades out there who want to be involved...\n>\n> Should be a topic at Transmediale 2019 \"e2e\"networktheme...\n>https://2020.transmediale.de/festival-2020\n>\n> but one always has to wonder just how far out of touch the arts+cult+showtime sectors are with pragmatic activism + praxis ...\n> i will check in to see, if not already too late. \n>\n> my cynical 2cent bits for the day...\n>\n> podinski\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>> Cheers, Ingrid.\n>>\n>>\n>> From: nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org <nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org> on behalf of podinski <podinski@mailbox.org>\n>> Sent: 06 September 2019 15:42\n>> To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org <nettime-l@mail.kein.org>\n>> Subject
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"hi pod! long time no see, hi ingrid, tatiana from abya yala :)\n\nas for a long time user and educator on free technologies for creative\nmedia production I was a bit skeptical on the article - we dont need to\ncreate one more leftist tool, but re-ocuppy with purpose and love all\ncollective maintained tools - perhaps more influenced by intersectional\npoltics (I am reading Ocalan :) but the networkS are alive, dormant\nbecause NOT dispersed and very much re-creating itself all the time.\nfree philosophy and ethics becomes just more urgent then ever! As Krenak\nan indigenous leader in brazil says we have been using \"colored\nparachutes\" in this fall \"being able to maintain our subjectivities, our\nvisions, our poetics about existence\". \n\nwe are in shock with the fire but its from the ashes that we create! \n\nhere a recent ongoing work from the brazilian cyberfeminists\nhttps://midiatatica.desarquivo.org/ tactical archives from the last\ndecade by collective perspectives. \n\nbest for all!\nt\n\n\nEm 2019-09-10 08:19, podinski escreveu:\n> Hi Ingrid et al, \n> \n> hmm, a little shocked that so few want to discuss the indymedia\n> platform topic... and what it means for today's struggles... \n> but na ja, so it goes in the web flood of efficiently cubicled\n> (un-)solidarities... \n> \n> On 9/7/19 10:05 AM, Hoofd, I.M. (Ingrid) wrote:\n> \n>> Hello ex-((i)) and ex-N5M3 folks,\n>>\n>> Just like to point out that https://www.indymedia.nl/ is still very\n>> much alive! I haven't been involved for many years now, but perhaps\n>> we could do something in Amsterdam, or barring that something in\n>> Berlin together with the Dutch ((i)) folks? I'd be happy to be\n>> involved somehow too!\n> sorry for slow reply... \n> things have been a little overloaded... \n> \n> good to hear that NL ((i)) is still kicking... i believe there are\n> several still out there providing useful public channels ( as\n> mentioned in the article, ie. Argentina ) !\n> \n> Not quite sure how to proceed with any concrete event plans for\n> Nov.... or beyond. \n> but happy to hear that there are some comrades out there who want to\n> be involved...\n> \n> Should be a topic at Transmediale 2019 \"e2e\"networktheme...\n>https://2020.transmediale.de/festival-2020\n> \n> but one always has to wonder just how far out of touch the\n> arts+cult+showtime sectors are with pragmatic activism + praxis ...\n> i will check in to see, if not already too late. \n> \n> my cynical 2cent bits for the day...\n> \n> podinski\n> \n>> Cheers, Ingrid.\n>>\n>> -------------------------\n>>\n>> From: nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org\n>> <nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org> on behalf of podinski\n>> <podinski@mailbox.org>\n>> Sent: 06 September 2019 15:42\n>> To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org <nettime-l@mail.kein.org>\n>> Subject: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!\n>>\n>> hello N-time,\n>>\n>> This November INDYMEDIA – (( i )) – will be 20 years old !!\n>>\n>> April Glaser writes a good short history of the pioneering\n>> network/platform/newsfeed … for Logic Magazine ( here ). But\n>> there’s\n>> probably many more things that need to be analyzed in the history of\n>> the\n>> Internet and digital culture to understand and assess whether\n>> “Another\n>> Network Is Possible“… and where + how tactical media can unite\n>> communities tomorrow…\n>>\n>> https://logicmag.io/bodies/another-network-is-possible/\n>>\n>> ...\n>>\n>> XLterrestrials are working on an expanded post about ALL that…\n>>\n>> http://xlterrestrials.org/plog/?p=19424\n>>\n>> excerpt from Part 1: Where are we now ?\n>>\n>>>\n>>\n>> ( that haunting + sad final-years-Bowie tune is playing back in our\n>> heads as we write… )\n>>\n>> This is an extremely complicated discussion, and it will take more\n>> than\n>> a short essay to sort through all the angles and dilemmas we find\n>> ourselves soaking in with the cybernetic technodystopias +\n>> technospherical spectrum +/or rectal probes of the\n>> military/corporate\n>> communication industries,
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"Hi Tati et al,\n\na pleasure to read some news from ya...\n\n+ thx for the link !\n\n...\n\nOn 9/11/19 2:38 PM, tacira@riseup.net wrote:\n> hi pod! long time no see, hi ingrid, tatiana from abya yala :)\n>\n> as for a long time user and educator on free technologies for creative\n> media production I was a bit skeptical on the article - we dont need to\n> create one more leftist tool, but re-ocuppy with purpose and love all\n> collective maintained tools - perhaps more influenced by intersectional\n> poltics (I am reading Ocalan :) but the networkS are alive, dormant\n> because NOT dispersed and very much re-creating itself all the time.\n> free philosophy and ethics becomes just more urgent then ever! As Krenak\n> an indigenous leader in brazil says we have been using \"colored\n> parachutes\" in this fall \"being able to maintain our subjectivities, our\n> visions, our poetics about existence\". \nyes, well it is not hard for me to be critical about More leftist tools...\nwe are getting very lost - and abused - in all the tooling around.\n\nAnd i think the article may point out clearly towards HOW we lost one\npossible road that the net could have taken to network our communities,\nsolidarities and resistance... \n\nI probably dont need to go into the details here of how that all got\nco-opted and used in the creepiest of ways to consolidate power and turn\nus all into its subjects and products. ( Neo-liberal + libertarian\nnetz, surveillance krapitalism and all that mess )\n\nIF the net can be reclaimed at all from the monstrous sprawl of\nill-intents...\nit would probably require new architectures that cannot be easily\nswallowed up by the Titans' toxic web.\n\nAs Rasmus Fleischer pointedly remarked at one of the recent\nTransmediales : this is what a failed rev looks like.\n\nI don't have any clear proposals for that, but that could be part of\nwhat would make sense with this ((i)) anniversary...\nto understand what we lost, and how we got where we are... and what\nrecourse makes sense now...\n\n...\n\nFrom an XLterrestrial perspective, it might be an important tactical\nmaneuver to get our feet back on the ground, locally... and \"shield\nourselves\" from the fallout of having \"lost the digital revolution\" ...\nand get more focused on our biological + ecological struggles.\n\n...\n\nXLt is perhaps far more optimistic about what we can achieve by learning\nfrom the cultures of resistance in the global south... and outside all\nthe tech hype !\nAnd not allowing the domination of tech environments to be our\nsurrogated means to imagining any new re-occupying strategies.\n\n...\n\nJust read yesterday an interesting story about Food Sovereignty and in\n2011 Russia... 40% of the food came from Dacha gardens... \n\n\"dacha gardens produced over 80% of the countries fruit and berries,\nover 66% of the vegetables, almost 80% of the potatoes and nearly 50% of\nthe nations milk, much of it consumed raw. \"\n\nhttp://naturalhomes.org/naturalliving/russian-dacha.htm?fbclid=IwAR1ia40bjy-j6-1H8DnGejakGBeg0Gn1VqED6sjk5A6sN8KOGg35hyn7pkE\n\nhavent checked out the accuracy of this, but the shift in topics +\norganizational objectives... seems very revelant !\n\n...\n\nJust last year Chaos Congress teamed up with FifF and others to put on a\nconference called Bits Und Baume ( and trees ) to finally take seriously\nthe ecological consequences of the poorly miscalculated unsustainability\nof all our endlessly expanding high tech cultures.\n\nIt only took 35 years for CCC to get around to this crucial topic... ;)\n... but i think some good things are coming together for further\ninvestigations into realistic terrestrial-based missions ... and less in\n\"hackers on the moon\".\n\nhttps://bits-und-baeume.org/en\n\n...\n\nLastly,\nto emphasize my points...\n\ni leave you all with this talk from Boaventura de Sousa Santos ...\nat HKW's Now is The Time Of Monsters : What comes after Nations... in\n2017...\n\n( which followed a talk from Felix Stadler on Protocols - and tech - for\nDemocracy? )\n\nAn
"subject":"Re: <nettime> 20 years of Indymedia: Where are we now ?!",
"content":"Hi Matze,\n\ni tried recently to follow and catch-up on the debacle of linksunten and\nstate censorship...\nand picked up the pamphlet :\nverboten ! zur Kriminalisierung von Indymedia linksunten\nvia Rote Hilfe e.v.\n\nbut havent yet had time to get thru it.\n\n...\n\nre: the issue of the liberated webs and copy left...\ni have begun to think that another unexpected + massive fallout has\noccurred with all this online free content falling into... the Titan\ngrip...\n\nand in the idealism of trying to \" common-ize\" and/or \"dismantle\ncapitalism\" on the net, but not in the AFK world... as the majority of\nus still live in the realms of landlord strangleholds...\n \nprotection of labor and the livelihoods of content producers and indy\npublishers + DIY distro merchants was not very well considered... in the\neco-systems of books, media, data, small business and shop owners... \nand people's having to make their money to survive... pay rent.... or\nrecoup their production budgets ( see Astra Taylor's The People's\nPlatform )...\n\nCopyright is a completely re-openable subject... of hot debate....\n\nwhich HKW is also being revisited again this year ( 100 Years Of\nCopyright and Part 2 : Right the Right... this Nov. )\n... but i am not so hopeful they will handle the topic radically enough,\nbecause in the end they are already looking for tech solutionism to fill\nin the grim situations... ie blockchain in the music industry ?\n\nbut no time to get very sophisticated in that beastly and tedious topic.\n\n...\n\ncheers,\np.\n\n\n \nOn 9/10/19 5:40 PM, Matze Schmidt wrote:\n> One more:\n>\n> Sebastian Luetgert in an interview mit textz.com (in German): \n> https://de.indymedia.org/2004/03/76975.shtml\n>\n> Am 10.09.2019 um 16:12 schrieb Matze Schmidt <matzeschmidt@matzeschmidt.de>:\n>\n> Hi,\n>\n> I remember when topics died. Esp. when Sebasian Luetgert 10?, 15? years ago was about sceptical talking about indymedia some years after the beginning of this platform. The radical pragmatists in Berlin sat there with a shrug.\n>\n> What's more important now is a struggle by a left against a state as a censor amidst the general new swing to the right, see here in German:\n>\n> https://twitter.com/zineworkshop/status/1161884759364198400?s=20\n>\n> Matze\n>\n> Am 10.09.2019 um 13:19 schrieb podinski <podinski@mailbox.org>:\n>\n> Hi Ingrid et al,\n>\n> hmm, a little shocked that so few want to discuss the indymedia platform topic... and what it means for today's struggles... \n> but na ja, so it goes in the web flood of efficiently cubicled (un-)solidarities... \n>\n>\n> On 9/7/19 10:05 AM, Hoofd, I.M. (Ingrid) wrote:\n>> Hello ex-((i)) and ex-N5M3 folks,\n>>\n>> Just like to point out that https://www.indymedia.nl/ is still very much alive! I haven't been involved for many years now, but perhaps we could do something in Amsterdam, or barring that something in Berlin together with the Dutch ((i)) folks? I'd be happy to be involved somehow too!\n> sorry for slow reply... \n> things have been a little overloaded... \n>\n> good to hear that NL ((i)) is still kicking... i believe there are several still out there providing useful public channels ( as mentioned in the article, ie. Argentina ) !\n>\n> Not quite sure how to proceed with any concrete event plans for Nov.... or beyond. \n> but happy to hear that there are some comrades out there who want to be involved...\n>\n> Should be a topic at Transmediale 2019 \"e2e\"networktheme...\n>https://2020.transmediale.de/festival-2020\n>\n> but one always has to wonder just how far out of touch the arts+cult+showtime sectors are with pragmatic activism + praxis ...\n> i will check in to see, if not already too late. \n>\n> my cynical 2cent bits for the day...\n>\n> podinski\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>\n>> Cheers, Ingrid.\n>>\n>>\n>> From: nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org <nettime-l-bounces@mail.kein.org> on behalf of podinski <podinski@mailbox.org>\n>> Sent: 06 September 2019 15:42\n>> To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org <nettime-l@mail.kein.org>\n>> Subject: <netti
